About the player and the environment...

[Dragon Chucker]

This is sort of a question and sort of a comment/observation


I seemed to have confused some people today and crossed some kind of invisible line or barrier some people have drawn on this server for whatever reason. What did I do exactly? I used dice without the DM present. Allow me to explain...

Lianna and a number of other players travelled way up north to near the Dwarven hold. Now Lianna didn't really know exactly why they were going up north and what to expect. So we have cold weather. Snow and wind chill. At some point, everyone crosses a stream (that was past the knees in depth as I recall) and I decide to make a Con check. Lianna has old boots on -and it soaked in some water. I totalled a 4 so Lianna starts noticing the biting cold in her feet and starts limping as things got a bit bad. I made another con check to see how she fared after a quick wipe down and wrapping of her feet a little ways out and fared better but the boots were still soaked and would get through anyway -especially having crossed another stream at some point...

Anyway, long story short, she started to limp and the condition changed from potential frostbite to potential foot rot. They were marching non-stop back to the Winery which didn't help.

Now, I don't think anyone could see the dice rolls I made but I did make an emote that included a spot check with a DC of 15 which totally threw some people for a loop.


Here's where I'm coming from: This was something I experienced and did with a lot of people back when I used to play on Richterm's Retreat West (way before they did a whole bunch of changes to their servers which I wasn't around for) -the players on occasion would make the environment more interesting without having to have a DM on hand and it definitely made for interesting RP moments. Those days are gone for me though. I think RR's changed since those days -the people I hung out with sure aren't around anymore... *shrugs*

Other moments of using dice:

Not too long ago, when I played Hana Sieger, she was sitting by the well reading a book which I emoted with a DC to identify the book's name. I don't think anyone bothered with that either.

I RP'd with Setiao (R.I.P.) when I noticed that his character always looked at the pommel of his sword when he had to comment about his name. I made a spot check and sent him a tell where I was told Setiao's name was written on it.


so... what I want to know is should I stop trying to use dice or maybe not use it so much here?




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[Reason]

Good Question.

I'll tell you that there are many different styles of RP present on this or any server. I think you'll find some folks around here who are into the style of RP you describe above. You'll also find others who are not.

I would recommend that you play in the style that you like. Afterall, this is supposed to be fun.

Just one question though, why do you feel that you crossed a line exactly?

[Dragon Chucker]

I should add that some people did inquire about it out of curiosity and of all the times I did use the DC's, one person other than Setiao (who apparently already was familiar with this sort of thing) gave the idea a whirl so I guess maybe I'm not completely out of bounds in its use. *shrugs* Dunno.



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[Dragon Chucker]

Just one question though, why do you feel that you crossed a line exactly?


Most people ignore my DC bit and just today I was told that dice rolls here are (typically?) done with DMs




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[Dragon Chucker]

Pardon the multiple postings...
Just looked at that last post and thought I should clarify that it was not a DM that told me about the dice rolling thing. Me, I'm just wary of rocking the boat (too much.)




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[goatte]

Dragon chucker, were you playing a half orc with tattoos, who had DC numbers in the character description? I ran into this one, but never had the opportunity to interact for a couple reasons.

Some of us have done dice rolls. I remember being asked to do a lore check once as faelar to understand a dialect of elvish. He succeeded and had an enjoyable conversation. A great example of a DC. Had I failed, I could have tried non-verbal communication or attempted to learn the language over time.

However, if someone asks me to roll a DC to see if I'm tricked by another player, that's a cop out, IMHO. If it's used as a shortcut, instead of RP, I'll pass. If you think you would like to RP with me for something requiring real interaction/cooperation between the players, you'd have to really work on setting up the situation through tells, dialogue and emotes and working through it with me. The DC approach for such situations kind of leaves me feeling like I've been acted upon, which is no fun for me. It just depends on the situation of the DC for some of us to respond well to it, I think. Perhaps that's why you felt a lack of response to the DC?

goatte

[Dragon Chucker]

The DCs I tend to do are on the passive side and more than half the time completely left at the option of other players to check or not. The results vary but a lot of the time deal with tells. In the case of the half-orc, I left the answers in the description to make it easier and trust in the honesty of the players to seperate conditions of IC and OOC.

If any of my characters were to lie (like one did just this evening,) I would leave it up to the other player to determine if the need to try the equivalent of a sense motive check (which I recall was replaced in 3.5)

The checks I introduce are often designed to be gateways to RP situations, such as the incident where Lianna almost got frostbite or Hana was reading a book on the origins of the weave (mainly an openning for clerics and/or other spell casters)

Correct me if I'm wrong but the default dice checks don't broadcast results to other players?


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[AtraAngelis]

Hello all,
I would like to elaborate on this topic because it was I (playing Keldorn) who was interacting with Lianna (Dragon Chucker) concerning the DC check with her injury to her foot.

I want to be clear that this is from only my perspective and my feelings and thoughts on the subject of DC checks. As said before there will be many different RP styles we meet and its up to us all to find a common ground with each other to have fun!

I personally, am not a fan of the DC check used by players if it may be something that a common person may notice or see. IN the case of our interaction Lianna asked me if I could make a DC check. I attempted to play through it so as to further the situation RP wise what was happening with Lianna, but eventually the conversation led me to make the DC check to try and continue RPing with her concerning her injury. I failed the DC check and basically shrugged and walked away since I could not see any thing wrong with her.

This is where I had issue. The use of the check limited -MY- RP with said character since I failed the check and was unable to continue with my line of questioning or actions since I noticed nothing different about her even though she was trying to make a situation interesting. This also shot down any RP Lianna had with any of us concerning her injury since no one else checked as far as I know, Thus lianas intended RP path with her injury was left on the table as well. I would have loved to play along with her situation without the DC check.

My point is RP is a two way street, action /reaction. When one party dictates what another can do or say it loses its luster a bit.

NOW…
I wish to rebuttal myself because there are instances where a DC check is appropriate from another PC.

As travelers of the realms we will come across many different lifestyles and images and customs and other non common things. DC checks in those situations are ok by me… MY dwarf may not know the symbols of Halfling deities, he may not understand the Chult custom of smacking ones ass when saying hello (just an example, it’s not true...is it?). SO in those situations or ones like it a DC check is perfectly acceptable.

A final note…
Dragon Chucker is a good RPer and a welcome addition to the vast, and I don’t want this to come off in a negative way. We are speaking of DC checks here and many other players have done them and we play through them as we encounter such situation. This is just my personal opinion of them based on the context they are used in.

[TheRingBearer]

Default Dice checks do not get boardcasted to other players... but this is easy to change via the craft menu.

Generally speaking, most of the time I've seen Skill checks for other players is always for something trival in nature, often times for a performance or such. Like for example, I used to recall Tom Goatleaf who would use a dex check to see if he shoots a cork into the chimmy of a house near the wellyard. I can also see it being used in order to determine how good a performance was, like Juggling. In these cases, the skill check was simply to expand on their own RP.

I think Goatte mentions some good things about when skill checks are used to demote a non-trival event. Like say a theif using his Pick Pockets skill as the PnP skill Sleight of Hand as he hides a gemstone in his pocket that he just found in a pile of rubble. There should be an argreement reached between everyone in the party OOC-wise before such a check should take place.

This reminds me alittle of the discission on Presuade, Intimmidate, and Bluff between Players on what should a Skill check against NPCs only. Where some sorcorer will walk up to someone and just Skill Check Persuade against another pc and its like 18+6= 24 O.o. I'll sum up the whole conversation in a single sentence of what AG said,

Also, where persaude checks are concerned, don't feel like you have to do something that would totally go against your character's beliefs just because another character succeeded in "persuading" your character. Persuade is not mind control, and should be limited as such.

(Added the bold text, Can find link to it here, more talk about Player Dice rolls... http://www.forum.nwnthevast.com/viewtop ... light=dice)

I also think Goatte hits this on the nail with this line.

If it's used as a shortcut, instead of RP, I'll pass.

Dice rolling should not be used to subsitute RP... but should be blended together WITH RP.


Having said all that O.o I didn't really see anything really wrong with the spot check you asked for... But perhaps its just that most of the time I've seen skill checks, they weren't really asked upon the rest of the group to take out their own dice bags. Don't feel like you crossed some invisibile line that Dice rolls are for DMs only... The DMs have given us our dice bags, Shouldn't be any reason not use them every now and then.

I apologies if my own lack of interest of your dice roll caused any misunderstandings. But still, a 15 DC spot check is pretty tough for almost all of the classes. I can not even explain why I ignored it completely back then... The best excuse I could come up with now was that I didn't want to linger in an area I've have no experence in but also having hear all kinds of scary things north of the Dale. But I feel that is a pretty weak excuse at that.

[L3]

It's odd over the internet as it's limited by the server in some ways and mechanics in another. One of my characters has a pretty good intimidate score but that doesn't show on the list of rolls one can make so it's a pain to get idea across especially since most think, "He's three feet tall maybe... What's to scare me?" Hehe. Did manage to use it once and Chimer can attest it was some fun RP the night Nev met his pal Aramil, but most time it just seems awkward. I'd say personally, if things are going slow, go ahead and suggest a DC rol moat will likely go for it to see where it leads, but don't let the mechanic get in the way of the game's flow. That's just my thoughts though. Personally I rather enjoy RPing with your chars and I have noticed the tendency to toss out suggestions for rolls. For me it's great near the well but I may ignore it when entering bandit lands or whatnot, intending no offense in doing so.

[archimedes 13]

I think there have been plenty of good comments about dice rolls, but I thought I'd mention one thing. Matyas was there when you made the announcement about Hana's book and the DC check. I think I sent you a brief tell, but basically I didn't roll because Matyas wasn't looking at her book. If he had been, I certainly would have rolled and we could have gone from there.

I think that was a fine instance of using a DC check.

[Dracharla]

I know that I personally am a fan of the occasional pc to pc roll and I have and still do sometimes use them. In my earlier days (when my character was alot rougher around the edges and I was as well) I would attempt to just attempt to have people do them. In essence making the roll an essential part of RP with me. Since not everyone is into rolls this created a problem in that it limited rp opportunities for me and for others to rp with me. I now try to take a slightly more relaxed approach. What I'm getting at I guess is rather than have your rolls lead to RP have your RP lead to a roll. The book thing you discussed is a great example of a passive dc roll, but rather than announce the roll, let those who are curious as to what it is (and they will be there trust me) contact you to find out what she's reading, and then offer the roll to them. If they pass the roll they see the book and can come find out whats wrong, and if they fail they can just move closer to see what the book is.

I think that is the key and ties into Atra's point keep the options open so that even if folks fail the roll, there is still the opportunity for rp to progress.

[onomat]

I'm just going to comment on one part. The DC to see tattoos is a bit much. If a player failed that spot check they would have to re-roll that spot everytime they looked at you character until they got it, and the pay off would be, they know you have tattoos. Something like that is pretty moot since they're going to see them eventually anyways.

It makes me think of one of the smart things Bioware did. They made lock pick attampts instantly result in the highest possible roll for the character, since if they didn't get a high enough roll they would just keep lock picking until they either got it, or got their highest roll and failed.

I feel that dice rolling in the RP environment should be used very very sparringly, as they can break the flow of play, force out of character behavior, and be used in a manner that allows one player to abuse another and hide behind the guise that it was the dice.

[Aramil Nailo]

I think the instant 20 is just simulating a "taking 20" from PnP, if you're in a fight you don't get it. I believe the same is for traps.

[JeKylL351]

Interesting topic, Dragon. I know many others use dice rolls to guide their characters responses (typically for things like Lore rolls), but they do not always broadcast this info. I suppose I personally avoid them because I feel uncomfortable deciding on a DC for my own character (or others). I guess I see that as something that should be left to the DMs to evaluate. But as others have said, do what you feel is comfortable, but just leave room for others to do the same.