Cleric levels= Priest?

[okoserce]

As many know, Kashal is an arcanist built on a cleric/wizard platform. My question is if a cleric needs to believe they are a priest or be apart of a clergy? Can the cleric's connection to his deity be more of a personal connection? Kashal is a devote follower, follows a code of sorts,prays on a regular basis, and wears deitiy's colors; as well as the holy symbol of his faith.

Kashal, trained as a wizard, sees his magic as an arcane bend; even the 'turn undead' ability is attempted to be explained within the bounds of the arcane field. My questions for the DMs specifically is if this is all right or does he need to not only rp as a cleric but 'believe' it as well?

Thanks in advance

[For more background info here's a link: http://www.forum.nwnthevast.com/viewtopic.php?t=2494 ]

[AtraAngelis]

Calling ones self a cleric does not make them a cleric. They must also follow the litany of the faith and belong to the hiarchy of the faith in question. Even druids who are one with nature have a structure amongst themselfs.

The best Kashal can claim is to be a devout follower of his faith.. nothing more. To claim the title of priest or cleric as such in the face of a true cleric of the religion he would be looked at as farce and at worst a heretic put to the stake.

[AtraAngelis]

Is kashal a Cleric/Wizard on his charcter sheet? If he is he would have had to gone through some indoctrination with his faith thus making him a true cleric... If he has no cleric level then he canot claim to be a priest under any capacity.

IMHO

[TheRingBearer]

Caution: I somehow have the bad feeling I may be way off the mark with this but I will add my thoughts on this.

Is not the idea of a cleric is that they get their magic directly from their diety? Indeed, clerics are at the complete mercy of their diety in terms of their magical abilities. If one's diety wished not to give their cleric his level 2 and above spells because of a mistake he comitted... then so be it. One of the most intersting example of this is that the cleric himself "requests" the spells to his diety. The diety is under no obligtion to follow though on those "requests." Indeed discovering after your prayer session that all those Sound Bursts spells you "requested" for were instead Cure Moderate Wounds would be in fact be a powerful statement of your diety's will. (Either as punishment or forshadowing of upcoming events) The way I see it, how can you "NOT" know that these spells are from your diety? They do not even have Arcane Spell failure!

Does a cleric need to believe that he is a priest? Perhaps not, but by healing in the name of your diety, everyone else will believe so. But by having earned/found/discovered his diety's favor... that counts for something. Not everyone in Fearun is blessed with ability to converse with the gods. This fact alone will mark you out from the pack. And weather or not you choose to aknowledge it is up to you. But know that everyone else will likely believe it, even if you do not. But if you are not part of their clergy...what are you? A holyman? A Healer?

But although you may be able to explain some of a cleric's power as arcane... but there is one thing that NO amount of explaination can solve. Healing. Healing is by far the biggest difference between a wizard and cleric (spell-wise). The wizard is nearly completely incapable of directly healing himself with magic. Sure he can do it indirectly (wish, life drain, polymorph), but he can not do it directly. Its as if Mystra herself prevents them from doing so. Of course this theory just flies the coop when you find out that Bards (Arcane spellcasters) can heal... This is actually one thing I have not been able to figure out myself.

As for "Turn Undead"... you can only turn undead if you have a holy symbol of your diety in your hands... Not very Arcane-like eh?


After reading some of Atra's replies, makes me wonder about how do dieties feel about "rogue" followers that although gain their power but were not part of any priesthood. Also along this lines is that "very" rare paladin who gains the paladin's powers by divine will but without being indoctrinated by the church.

[okoserce]

looks like a mild misunderstanding, Kashal does not call himself a priest at all, even though he has cleric levels. He does infact wish he could be such.

In one way not knowing to a certain extent makes sense as his deity upholds innocence and in some cases naivety. He believes his deity blesses him with all his power whether arcane or otherwise. Now in regards to the spell failure question some of his spells do fail due to spell failure also noting arcane failure can be subverted with the still spell feat.
The healing itself is a bit tricky, bards would be good example of an arcanist who can heal without a deity. Kashal has found favor with his deity and follows the faith quite strictly.(And IC it can be noted that Kashal wishes he could be a priest)
He does carry his holy symbol with him at all times as a symbol of his faith. He thinks of it as arcane and explains it as 'cutting the chords that bind the walking dead into servitude' but feels the talent is a gift from his deity.

[Ali Akabba]

Which is Kashal's deity, by the way?

Ali

[clewis0010]

I do not believe that divine spells could ever be regarded as anything but a gift from the gods, as they are only granted as a result of personal communion with the deity. If your character is casting divine spells, he knows that he receives them from his deity, because the only way he can gain them each day is by requesting them from his god. Now, your character can still rationalize them as being an extension of the Weave, because, in fact, they are an extension of the Weave! As far as I know, both arcane and divine spells draw their power from the Weave. The only difference is the manner in which the Weave is tapped. With arcane magic, the caster manipulates the Weave through ancient incantations or through his own force of will. With divine spells, the Weave is manipulated for the caster by the divine will of his god. As a character with both arcane and divine casting classes, yours will have an extensive knowledge of the Weave, as he can access it multiple ways!

[Aramil Nailo]

As to the question in relation to wether a cleric must be part of a clergy to benefit from magic bestowal.

Players Handbook: At most it implies that clerics are members of a church. However, seeing as it also talks about devotion to a particular ideals (DEFINITELY NOT ALLOWED ON THIS SERVER) I believe it supports advancing in the class without a clergy structure. However, in all ways it is ultimately the DM's choice in any campaign as to the details.


As to arcane bend in casting.

First one must ask what arcane magic is...

Magic is magic is magic. Arcane is magic, Divine is magic, magic is magic. According to the Setting Book; Divine casting manipulates the weave, Arcane casting also manipulates the weave, What makes arcane and divine different is the way its accessed.

Divine is granted by the diety.

Arcane is done by your own processess, innate (sorcerer), practice and formulae (wizard), "bard songs waken echoes of the songs of beginning, the music of creation itself." (maybe why they heal?)

So the question is, does he believe the spells come from his diety or his processes?

[Aramil Nailo]

oh and that info is from page 55 of the DnD Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting...

[Aramil Nailo]

yours will have an extensive knowledge of the Weave, as he can access it multiple ways!

Not necessarily, one can be a caster without knowledge (arcana/religeon) or spellcraft... And even with those skills there are many opinions on how magic works.

[AtraAngelis]

Waint..im totaly confused....

If kashal has cleric levels.. he is a , has spoken to his diety and understands the source of such magic... a gift from his god....he is a preist/cleric and should think of hismelf as one.. I cannot see folowing a class path and not know your part of that group.

To chose a clerical path and then make the jump in asumption that he thinks hes a mage of some sort.. is a very far stretch to me anyways...

[clewis0010]

When I said knowledge of the Weave, it was meant to imply a knowledge of how to access and manipulate the Weave. I suppose that I should have said his character will have a closer relationship with the Weave, as he can access it multiple ways. Still, I do not believe either phrasing would change the fact that the character has to know his divine spells come from a deity.

If that character does not identify himself with the religious institutions which are associated with that deity, I would not necessarily say that deity would not recognize him as a vessel for divine power, however. I believe that all depends upon the ideals which the deity embodies.

[okoserce]

Waint..im totaly confused....

If kashal has cleric levels.. he is a , has spoken to his diety and understands the source of such magic... a gift from his god....he is a preist/cleric and should think of hismelf as one.. I cannot see folowing a class path and not know your part of that group.

To chose a clerical path and then make the jump in asumption that he thinks hes a mage of some sort.. is a very far stretch to me anyways...

He has spoken to his deity and communes with her regularly...He feels that his gifts do stem from her but views his power for an arcane perspective although he prays for guidance, direction, and focus. From the beginning he was trained as a wizard. Kashal knows he is a part of the group that follows the SpringMaiden and had been deamed a true follower, before his trek to the wizard towers.

well, one thing that would make sense, if there is confusion is just ask him IG.

[clewis0010]

Who is the Spring Maiden? Man, I wish the Faiths and Pantheons book had an index.

[onomat]

Being a cleric is a religious calling. If he took cleric levels, then he knows he is called, and should act accordingly. Turning undead is accomplished by a character channeling their faith through their holy symbol, and is a power granted only to the extremely faithful (clerics and paladins).

The FRCS says that, "Whenever a spell, spell-like ability, supernatural ability, or magic item functions, the threads of the Weave intertwine, knit, twist, and fold to make the effect possible." So Turning Undead is definitely manipulating the weave. However, I doubt anyone, especially someone so versed in the arcane that they are a wizard, could mistake his divine powers for arcane powers. As so many others said, one is granted by deities to their most faithful, and the other (in Kashal's case) through years of hard work, study, and an arcane (heh) understanding of how the weave works.

I guess what I'm saying, is if he is a wizard, he knows the difference, and you should probably play him so.