Cleric levels= Priest?

[okoserce]

Thanks for the input, I started that thread to get a good idea how to play the character to be honest. And it is helping a lot, working quite a few tweaks, and am currently rping his discovery of being a cleric. I guess the idea is that Kashal knows his powers are a 'gift' from his deity but has never seen himself as a cleric even though he lives up to the ideals, follows a code, carries the holy symbol of his faith, etc. He just currently sees everything with an arcanist bend due to being trained at a mage tower, even though he was technically a cleric. A bit ackward but the rp value has been worth it so far(If the favored soul class existed for NWN I it would have made a bit more sense). I started this post after a few concerns were brought to my attention & I wanted some honest criticism about how may character is/should be played so as to best fit the current game universe being used.

[Dracharla]

Players Handbook: At most it implies that clerics are members of a church. However, seeing as it also talks about devotion to a particular ideals (DEFINITELY NOT ALLOWED ON THIS SERVER) I believe it supports advancing in the class without a clergy structure. However, in all ways it is ultimately the DM's choice in any campaign as to the details.

just to clear this little bit up

the reason that this is not applicable to the vast server isn't because of our particular rules as a server but rather the way dieties function in Forgotten Realms (the setting of the vast region and thus our server)

In reagular D&D You need not necessarily serve a diety to draw divine magic, you can serve a cause or ideal, or in the case of a druid (the class I am most familiar with) You may simply serve the idea of nature itself. This is enough to let you draw divine magics

In FR the gods play a much more important and day to day role in the lives of their clergy and really just normal folks. And there are certainly MANY more gods to choose from in FR (heck gods that I've never even heard of! OK is the spring maiden even in pantheons? I couldn't find her) So much so that the rule of serving an ideal or a thing like nature does not apply in FR (I have yet to find the exact page in the FRCS)

such that in order to access divine magic, you must serve a diety. And that even if you are just a layperson, if you do not have a diety whom you worship as your patron you will end up in the wall of the faithless.

[TheRingBearer]

More food (Alright its just a snack) for thought.
While being naive is quite possible for any person, those with higher WIS scores are less likely to fall victum to such and would quickly learn from such mistakes once pointed out to them.

[Dracharla]

This actually brings up another thought for me.

I know that in order to be a cleric of a diety you need to have cleric levels.

but what about priest?

I always at least in an FR/D&D sense thought that a cleric always was a priest, but a priest does not need to be a cleric. In that a Priest is a servant of a diety but was typically not an adventurer and thus would likely not have any cleric or really any levels beyond just simple commoner ones.

anyone got some skinny on this?

[clewis0010]

This actually brings up another thought for me.

I know that in order to be a cleric of a diety you need to have cleric levels.

but what about priest?

I always at least in an FR/D&D sense thought that a cleric always was a priest, but a priest does not need to be a cleric. In that a Priest is a servant of a diety but was typically not an adventurer and thus would likely not have any cleric or really any levels beyond just simple commoner ones.

anyone got some skinny on this?

I suppose that a character does not necessarily have to be a cleric in order to preach the teachings of his chosen deity, although I, personally, would not refer to them as a priest. The term priest, to me, implies being established within the hierarchy of a church. In the Forgotten Realms setting, where the manifestation of divine power is very real evidence of faith and devotion, I can not envision a character rising within the church unless they are capable of displaying such manifestations. A particularly pious character of another class could still spread the word of his chosen deity, but I would liken them more to a Christian Sunday school teacher than a full-fledged priest. To me, the answer seems to be a matter of semantics.

[JeKylL351]

I always thought it was more of a rank of sorts in the DnD sense. Like Novice, Acolyte etc. A priest would be someone who has reached a level of recognition in their community and would be considered a spiritual leader. I suppose this idea harkens back to the old versions of DnD when each level had a title associated with it. Often the two terms are interchangable. *shrugs*

[clewis0010]

Thanks for the input, I started that thread to get a good idea how to play the character to be honest. And it is helping a lot, working quite a few tweaks, and am currently rping his discovery of being a cleric. I guess the idea is that Kashal knows his powers are a 'gift' from his deity but has never seen himself as a cleric even though he lives up to the ideals, follows a code, carries the holy symbol of his faith, etc. He just currently sees everything with an arcanist bend due to being trained at a mage tower, even though he was technically a cleric. A bit ackward but the rp value has been worth it so far(If the favored soul class existed for NWN I it would have made a bit more sense). I started this post after a few concerns were brought to my attention & I wanted some honest criticism about how may character is/should be played so as to best fit the current game universe being used.

By creating a bit of revisionist history for your character, and selecting a deity of magic, like Mystra, as your patron, I think you could use your new understanding as a player of how arcane and divine magic works to establish a much stronger character concept. Your character could be one so devoted to learning the Weave that, in addition to studying the arcane rituals necessary to tap it, he also entered into the service of his deity in order to gain their divine insight about the nature of magic. I am sure you could go a number of other ways, as well, but the important thing to remember is to not complicate the history of your character when a more simple explanation of their abilities could be made. I thoroughly believe in not creating a history that is so complex that it convolutes the essence of the personality of a character. Good luck!

[Guktron]

Here is a brief look at how the Cleric evolved as a D&D class in the FR Setting.

With the first publication of the FR setting (under 1st Ed. AD&D), Clerics were more or less of the "plain vanilla" variety, played according to their alignment. Although the setting provided them with specific gods (called "Powers") to choose from, the 1st Ed. AD&D rules did not yet provide them with domains, domain-specific spells, or domain powers. All Clerics selected spells from the same general spell list. As JeKylL351 says, a list of titles were given according to level of advancement. The title "Priest" was given to Clerics of 3rd level (just a little trivia for you).

With 2nd Ed. AD&D, the Cleric class was expanded and clerics could now take on "spheres of influence" (the forerunner of what we now call domains) and receive granted powers if the DM gave them the option. They also had to observe restrictions of their deity with regard to weapons, ethos, and specific alignment.

To go in line with this, TSR updated the FR setting in Forgotten Realms Adventures (1990, referred to commonly as FRA) and began using the term "priests" to describe both Clerics and specialty priests (pg. 4). In practice, though, the term Cleric referred to a priest of the general variety and "specialty priests" received their own deity-specific names, in most cases. A specialty priest of Lathander was called a "Morninglord," for example. Special rules were provided for the specialty priests which made them more attractive to play and helped to usher in the new rules (Indeed, the 2nd Ed. AD&D rules brought about many specific and rather arbitrary changes to the FR Setting, such as the death of all Assassins by the act of Bhaal. One cannot help but wonder if the Time of Troubles was prompted by a TSR marketing decision to facilitate the new 2nd Ed. rules).

As 2nd Ed. proliferated throughout the gaming community, the Forgotten Realms kept a steady pace with various supplements and novels, fleshing out more and more of Faerûn's lands and people. In the 2nd Ed. Forgotten Realms boxed set (1993), sadly, you won't find those special rules included for the specialty priests, but you will find an informative bit about the distinctions among the types of priests:

Priests can also be divided into two groups within their faith's organization, though members of one group easily and often cross into the other group. Hierarchy-bound priests are those who are usually tied down to a specific location, such as a temple, shrine, or monastery, and work primarily to the good of that location, the church, and the community, though not necessarily in that order. Mission priests are at-large agents entrusted to wander the length and breadth of the Realms spreading the basic tenets and beliefs of their faith.
Many of the priests found in adventuring parties, working alongside merchants, or in mercenary companies are mission priests (pg. 17, A Grand Tour of the Realms).

Not wanting to disappoint, TSR soon released Faiths & Avatars (1996) for the FR setting, a comprehensive work that dealt properly with the Priest class group. Each deity was provided with complete avatar stats, new, deity-specific spells and details of the church. Priestly characters could still elect to be "plain vanilla" Clerics, but now the term Cleric referred to "militant priests who serve as knights-templar, defenders of the faith, and guardians of a faith's holy places" (pg.182). Powers & Pantheons and Demihuman Deities filled out the rest of the FR pantheon, laying the foundation for the current spectrum of lore on FR deities.

With the coming of D&D 3.0 and its thorny succesor, "Cleric" again became the commonly used term. But this time around, all Clerics must choose two specific domains, even if they do not serve a particular deity. The FR books have since embraced the term, using it to refer to PC divine spellcasters of any faith who have selected the Cleric class. Many of the deity-specific names for Clerics remain in place, and I find that it adds good flavor to our RP when using them.

I provide this kind of stuff to help broaden player perspective, not to "lay down the law" or anything like that. The main thing is to be consistent in your portrayal. I agree with JeKylL351 that the terms "cleric" and "priest" are quite interchangeable within the context of the game.

[clewis0010]

I agree with JeKylL351 that the terms "cleric" and "priest" are quite interchangeable within the context of the game.

I go one step further and most times eschew using the word cleric when interacting in character. The term seems so meta to me. That is just my personal choice, though.

Does anybody own Faiths and Avatars, Powers and Pantheons, or Demihuman Deities? I would be interested in knowing how much of the flavor from those books was carried directly into Faiths and Pantheons and how much of the flavor was altered between editions.

[Guktron]

clewis,

Yes I own these 3 books (and Faiths and Pantheons). The flavor and lore of them are carried almost directly into Faiths and Pantheons; whole passages are simply re-stated. In most cases the information is streamlined a bit to fit three sourcebooks worth of lore into one mega-sourcebook, and of course there are a few updates to the entries to account for the advancement of the campaign timeline. The 2nd Ed. books (F&A, P&P, DD), although outdated, give more details on the manifestations of each deity, hierarchy of the various churches, and major centers of worship.

[clewis0010]

The 2nd Ed. books (F&A, P&P, DD), although outdated, give more details on the manifestations of each deity, hierarchy of the various churches, and major centers of worship.

What?! That, to me, is the most important information of all! I would have much rather had that information instead of worthless statistic blocks for each of the deities. I wonder how much the 2nd Edition books go for on amazon.com.

[archimedes 13]

A quick amazon search shows about $11-12 per book.

If one were to purchase just one of these 2nd edition books, which would people here recommend? I imagine either Faith and Avatars or Powers and Pantheons...but what's the difference between these two?

[Morgan Gallanhart]

Faiths and Avatars deals with the major deities of the realms specifically lesser gods and above. Powers and Pantheons was devoted to the Demi-powers, and the other minor pantheons (Mulhorand, Unther, Chult). I purchased Powers and Pantheons first as I was building a campaign around Mulhorand at the time. Which one you buy depends upon which dieties you are seeking information. Demihuman Deities of course provides the faiths for the Dwarves, Elves, Gnomes and Halflings and the last one (not mentioned yet) was Humanoid Deities (I think that was the name of it... most of my 2nd Ed. books are in storage right now) which added the gods for the Orcs, Giants, and other such races.


Nothing to really add regarding clerics... just happen to possess alot of 2nd Ed. material.

[onomat]

I can see how that information could be a great help in this situation. However I do feel that for the PnP game, WotC's angle of less detailed information gives DMs and Players more freedom, and I welcome that.

[archimedes 13]

Faiths and Avatars deals with the major deities of the realms specifically lesser gods and above. Powers and Pantheons was devoted to the Demi-powers, and the other minor pantheons (Mulhorand, Unther, Chult). I purchased Powers and Pantheons first as I was building a campaign around Mulhorand at the time. Which one you buy depends upon which dieties you are seeking information. Demihuman Deities of course provides the faiths for the Dwarves, Elves, Gnomes and Halflings and the last one (not mentioned yet) was Humanoid Deities (I think that was the name of it... most of my 2nd Ed. books are in storage right now) which added the gods for the Orcs, Giants, and other such races.

I guess I'm most immediately interested in the human gods (for my current characters), particularly the Triad, so it sounds like all of the main gods are in Faiths and Avatars? Demihuman Deities would also be nice to get.

Thanks for the help.