Evil Characters???

thryllkill · Post by **thryllkill** » Wed Oct 08, 2003 5:09 pm

Hi. I am not totally new to the Vast, but due to work and girl and class have limited time to play. But moving along, here is my question. 
 
Evil characters. I know it will be difficult, because by definition evil characters are an antithesis of a working community, but what are the definitive limits on evil character playing? 
 
Obviously an evil chatacter can lie and cheat (in game cheating, not game hacks and such. Like tricking someone out of money). And I know murder is a no no (unless it is DM sanctioned) 
 
On murder. Can I tell a DM that I have a good in game reason to murder someone (I have to explain the reason to ensure that it is not an OOC grudge or something). That DM can then ask the player if it is okay that another player makes an attempt on their life. (Nameing my character would make my job harder, but if an evil character wants you dead, you should already know that <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/embarassed.gif ALT=":o"> ) Or how would this be accomplished? (Note: I am not planning on killing anyone, just asking questions for the future) 
 
On cheating and trickery. What are the limits? 
 
Again, I have nothing planned, but I want to know. I think and evil character can make life very interesting for the people of the vast. 
 
No, I do not want to be Drow.

pcpaf · Post by **pcpaf** » Wed Oct 08, 2003 6:07 pm

Pleace make a Evil carecter. Natham needs help out there <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/devil.gif ALT=":evil"> 
 
Its never easy to play Evil on a "good" server. 
When I made mine and was trying to become REAL EVIL I found out that most of the other players don´t want a Evil person in here, so I have made mine more friendly, but he is still Evil. The hard thing about being Evil is that you need a DM on if you want to do anything. 
You can´t make fun of some stupid Paladin with out a DM on be cource if they want to fight you, then you need a DM. 
You can´t brake into homes becource almost all the houses in the Vast recryers a key. 
 
But pleace make a Evil charecter.. We need people to know about fear <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/roll.gif ALT=":rollin">

sebathius · Post by **sebathius** » Wed Oct 08, 2003 10:37 pm

The issue isnt whether or not we want evil characters on our server. ANYONE CAN BE A MURDERER ONLINE, anyone can kick in doors and murder people in their beds in the server. That guys been done (his name was the Headless Horseman, see the Movie Sleepy Hollow). 
 
By definition, Evil is more then just "Son of Sam". There are many facets of evil and some have been done to death, what with the psychological murdering pkers that have been out there. 
 
If you really want to play an evil character, I heavily suggest looking up some movies or books to find some really interesting evil people: 
 
Scar, The lion King 
The Emperor Palpatine, Jabba the Hutt and Bobba Fett, The Star Wars Movies 
Kaiser Soze, The Usual Suspects 
Dr. Hannibal Lecter, Silence of the Lambs 
Dr. Smith, Lost in Space 
Dr. Beloche (?sp?), Raiders of the Lost Ark 
Gabriell the angel, The Prophecy 
Magneto, X Men I 
The Green Goblin, Spider Man 
Wormtongue and Saruman, The Lord of the Rings 
Mogan LeFey, Le Mort deArtur 
 
and from real life: 
 
Phillip II, The Spanish Armada, enacted mass murder of Protestants over the Netherlands in the name of religion. 
Herman(?) Rommel, WWII German Tank General 
Adolf Hitler, Nazi Dictator (duh) 
Kuble Kahn, The Mongol Horde 
Quichatexete, Aztec High Priest under Moctezuma 
Hernando Cortez, The bastard that subjegated my mexican bretheren <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)"> 
Joseph Stalin, Russian Dictator (wont call him otherwise) 
Petre Rasputin, Russian priest/worlock/necromancer? 
John Blackbeard, Pirate of the Carribbean 
Head of Enron, Inc (responsible for destroying the futures of their employees for personal gain) 
Grey Davis, FORMER California Governor (just kidding) 
<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/laugh.gif ALT=":lol"> 
 
Yes, yes, yes, these people all have killed and murdered (especially Blackbeard <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif ALT=":D"> ), but their aims werent just bent on that. They had a mind of their own, with ambitions and ideals. Beloche, for example, wanted to discover the Ark of the Covenant, and didnt care that he fell into bed with the Nazis to do it. He had a greater ambition, though he paid for it with his life. If he had to kill a couple ne'er do wells to get his aims, it had to be done. Thats what sets him apart from an ordinary villain. How long did it take for Emperor Palpatine to make his plans come to fruition? Slow evil, of course, but brilliant as well.....and who didnt love the dementia of Hannibal Lecter and go OMG when they found out who the deamon was behind the dreaded name: KAISER SOZE! 
<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/devil.gif ALT=":evil"> <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/devil.gif ALT=":evil"> <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/devil.gif ALT=":evil"> <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/devil.gif ALT=":evil"> <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/devil.gif ALT=":evil"> <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/devil.gif ALT=":evil"> <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/devil.gif ALT=":evil"> <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/devil.gif ALT=":evil"> <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/devil.gif ALT=":evil"> <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/devil.gif ALT=":evil"> <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/devil.gif ALT=":evil"> <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/devil.gif ALT=":evil"> <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/devil.gif ALT=":evil"> 
 
So go ahead, be evil, but how you play evil is how you set yourself apart from the brutes, the Henchmen, the psychotics, and the VILLAIN! Thats when I would be proud to have characters on our servers that were evil! 
 
Hector

Raeberquark · Post by **Raeberquark** » Wed Oct 08, 2003 10:53 pm

are you sure Rommel was evil....... 
Call me stupid but i just dont know 
 
RaeberQuark

sebathius · Post by **sebathius** » Wed Oct 08, 2003 11:55 pm

Ill remove Rommell from the list (because I havent read his biography in quite a while) and replace him with Himmel, the one in charge of seeing to murdering the jews and "imperfect" people in Hitler's eyes...what was the name of that bastard that was head of Hitlers Youth again? 
 
Oh and dare I say it, Osama bin Laden. 
 
Hector

goatte · Post by **goatte** » Thu Oct 09, 2003 12:20 am

Folks, I'd like to recommend that we not focus on the specific names on Hector's list. I've been on boards that discuss history and seen the discussion get totally out of hand because of differences of opinion. I'm sure there are folks that each one of us would put on the list of evil with which others would disagree. 
 
Getting back to Hector's main point, as I saw it, you don't have to be an evil thug clubbing folks over the head with a club just to kill them. Ask yourself why your character would do what they do? 'I like to see the brains fall out of their head' just means you're a mad dog that needs to be put down. You're not RPing, at all. You're PKing. Go play Diablo, if that's what you want. You'd be happier there. Seriously. Or look for a server with lots of evil characters on it. The Underdark comes to mind. 
 
That said, if you want to play an evil character, sit down and think out a character. Why are they evil now? What made them that way? Whether good or evil, an interesting character needs a backstory. If you want other characters to interact with yours, give us a backstory that interests us. Otherwise, folks will just think they're wasting their time. 
 
Be subtle. Subtle evil will hide the fact it is evil, possibly even from itself. A self-righteous champion of a noble cause can commit evil acts, as easily as a selfish thief and murderer out to get rich at others' expense. Expediency is the fastest route to an evil alignment. Cutting corners morally. Fallen paladins come to mind. 
 
If you want to play evil in a good world, you have to hide it. Think paranoid. 'What if they find out about me?' 'How can I be safe?' Sit and think it through, folks. Think extreme prejudice against a race or religion. Think extreme greed. Just think it out. 
 
This whole fear thing is confusing me. You want my character afraid of yours? Why? Frankly, our characters have enough to fear inside and outside the gates. A first level wizard is seriously challenged even hunting deer in Eastern Dragon Dale. 
 
goatte

AmirahTernAren · Post by **AmirahTernAren** » Thu Oct 09, 2003 2:09 am

Good points Goatte. 
That said, once people know you're evil (and that's pretty difficult to hide with Paladin's around who will spread the word once they've identified you), they will shun you. But even evil is not black or white as you put it. A paladin can commit evil acts, and conversely an evil characters could still come to the light. However, in my experience (see Eldoroth), people will shun him. 
For example, I got from him OOC that nobody had cared to ask him about his past and the reasons why he had become evil. So, evil can be great so long as it does not mean you will become a solitary character, shunned by everybody. 
Second, I feel that whilst non-evil chars can have a driving purpose with the drow story and all, there is little for an evil charcter to be excited about. 
By definition, somebody Neutral evil (for example) will not hesitate to resort to murder to get what they want. This option is obviously not viable here. So what's left? Swindling and thieving? 
I think there must be more support from the DM part for evil characters, and even there could be event organised for evil chars. Otherwise, it is solitary hunting, occasional RP with those that can stand your presence for more than a few minutes and occasional swindling and thieving... 
Maybe we should open a thread for people to put forward ideas on how to help develop and support the presence of evil-aligned characters?

thryllkill · Post by **thryllkill** » Thu Oct 09, 2003 3:41 am

With a paladin though, all the character needs to do is to avoid him or her. And that is exactly what an evil character would do. 
 
Or maybe, the evil characters should band together. Not a guild or anything organized, but definatly identify who the other evil characters are, and form small scale temporary alliances. 
 
I must also assert that a neutral evil character will not automatically resort to murder to get what they want. They still have to consider the laws and people around them before they can just start doing as they like, regardless of whether they respect those laws or people. An intellegent, or even simply non-moron, evil character would consider murder quickly, but plan and execute it in such a way that they think they can not be caught.

quangster01 · Post by **quangster01** » Thu Oct 09, 2003 4:05 am

I agree with that. however, ambushing a character in the wilds is something that an evil character would definitely envisage doing. Dead can't speak right? The problem is, normally, if i played an evil char, I would dispose of the body so nobody could rez him or her to get the truth out. Here this would not be fun for the 'murdered' players. 
Now, also keep in mind, that not all murderers are eminence grise and that most are actually the simpler brutish type. 
 
As for Paladin, how do you avoid them whilst staying IC? It is not written on their face that they are Paladin. I agree there are ways to know one is a Paladin IC, but in many cases, you will find that they have rumbled you out before you do identify them, simply because they can sense you and you cannot sense them. i remember once talking to a char, and he was a paladin, and whilst I was typing my sense, the char used a special item's power a few times (probably detect evil). The char was new on the server and had I been evil, there was just simply no way for me to avoid him. 
 
A detect-good tool would be great but then why would the evil char have a detect good tool and the good ones would not have the detect evil tool unless they are Paladins of course. 
 
If there not active support for evil, I don't think an evil char has much potential here. There must be a place for them to plot, or even a plot for them to further. Well, that's my 2-cent opinion anyway.

pcpaf · Post by **pcpaf** » Thu Oct 09, 2003 7:47 am

Who cares about the Paladins being abel to Detect Evil. 
The tool only makes them know you are Evil. If they haven´t seen you do anything Evil, they can´t do anything about it. 
 
Most Evil persons can use Magic and that makes them abel to kill other people with out them knowing who killed them. Spells like "blindness/Deafness", "sleep" and Invisibility might come handy. Thats how a Evil person can kill a enemy with out anybody knowing who killed him. ( and the person will only lose 1 lvl. ) 
 
But being Evil is not about killing other players. Its about making great plots and make other charecters look over there sholder. Evil can bring some very good things to this Server.. Some great plots. Most of the players love the Events with the Drow.... But why only make plots like this that are DM controled... A player can be the one to shot a arrow after the party (with DM permission) and make the party chase after him into the Warrens where he can cast Invisibility and leave with out them knowing he is gone... A Evil Charecter can help the DMs make Events with players on there side... A evil charecter can make things there will make people talk with out a DM on. 
 
Most people are to scared of getting Player killed. But remember that the Evil charecter has his hands tired beheind his back be course of the rules on the Server. They can´t attack you with out a DM on and if they do it with out a DM they will get a warning or banded, And more importent... You will get a rez from the DMs. 
 
Its very hard to play a Evil charecters becouse you have to be carefull of what you do. All the odds are on the Good charecters side.

Yyrkroon · Post by **Yyrkroon** » Thu Oct 09, 2003 4:27 pm

The bulk of my characters on the Vast are 'evil' by alignment, but thats basically because of how silly I've always found the D&D alignments, no one ever writes a play, book, or movie by defining characters as evil or good, instead writers try to discern motivations for characters. 
 
-- 
Yyrika, my Druid, is NE. She has absolutely no problem with obliterating entire tribes of goblins down to the very last baby gobling that had made life hard on her, but she would never initiate such violence. She fights the gobbos because they attack her, not for any holy purpose. Should a town guard attack her, she would not hesitate to kill the guard (assuming she could) and butchering his entire family - maybe butchering first while the guard is forced to watch. 
 
While she sometimes pretends otherwise, she feels no regrets about using her power over animals and nature for her own benefit. She has many times used Stags as hunting dogs with little concern over their survival. They are merely tools - her animal companion though, is different, as he is her truest friend. 
 
On the otherhand, she would never cheat or betray a friend - but the Goddess have mercy on any who cheat or betray her. She has risked her life several times to recover her companions' bodies, and spent significant sums of her meager wealth rezzing them. She has freely given gold, potions, and other minor magical items to people she hardly knows, simply because they probably need it more then she; but she also has no qualms with robbing the dead - if she didn't know them in life. 
 
She returns kindness with kindness, but "punishes" hostility with everything in her power. Her 'root' motivation is to protect herself and punish those who would hurt her (bad past). 
-- 
On the otherhand, I have another NE character, Basjun the Dwarf, who wouldn't hesitate to do anything if he thought it would benefit his progress - rob a widow, murder a child, etc... 
 
He still won't partake in evil for evil's sake; there needs to be some benefit, as his 'root' motivation is consuming greed. 
-- 
D&D alignments are just very black and white/silly and not well suited for real role-playing, but more for hack-n-slash kill everything on the other team/side type games. 
 
We also tend to think too much in terms of modern Western liberal values, which don't translate well to fantasy which mirrors Europe somewhere between the High Medieval and Ancient Imperial periods. 
 
It is, and has been, almost always considered evil to murder one's parents, for example. 
 
What about hereditary monarchies though? How many 'good' heroes in fantasy are princes or kings, who are good because of what they do, nevermind the fact that hereditary autocracy is in itself 'evil' to modern man. 
 
Oh well, I'm rambling, the point somewhere in there, is that I think you should forget whether your character is supposed to be good or evil, and just play them as you envision them. 
 
<hr /> 
Now to indulge in some fun... 
Rommel was a LG Paladin bound to an oath to serve a NE empire. 
 
What was Thomas Jefferson? 
NG Champion of Individual Liberties 
or 
LE Slavemaster

goatte · Post by **goatte** » Thu Oct 09, 2003 5:06 pm

I just sat down and read what I wrote in the second paragraph in my first posting, and I want to apologize. What I wrote was way too harsh. 
 
I would like to bring up the point about playing evil characters. If you don't expect someone to take it personal when they're PKed, you're mistaken. A lot of work and effort go into these characters. If you PK someone and get away with it, what's to stop the other player from coming back with another character and killing the PKers character? Followed by the PKer creating another character, and so on. I'm embarassed to say that one of my characters almost got caught up in a foolish fued with another character that almost escalated to a murder in town. Thankfully some good RPers showed us how to go about using skill and ability checks to roleplay through the situation. 
 
There are lots of options that one can do short of PKing, if you're willing to roleplay it. All characters involved must be willing to roleplay this. An evil individual would have the opportunity to harass, spread lies about, intimidate, blackmail and extort the cooperation of a willing player. There's nothing stronger than the aura of power and invicibility. You don't have to bash heads, when folks know you're willing and able. Even better, what if they think you're an upstanding citizen, and can't imagine that you'd do the things you're accused of. Think about it. Spoken in a menacing voice, "You know it's really hard to cast spells with no knuckles." How many mages would not want to lose their knuckles or familiar? Think of a Thieves' Guild. A thief or assassin's time is valuable, why would they just randomly waste their time on gathering in a few measly rusted daggers and quartz crystals. 
 
RP not PK. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif ALT=":D"> 
 
The DMs have the responsibility to keep this place enjoyable for the maximum number of folks, and I believe that they're doing a very good job. I hope we don't see the feuds that would come from PKing. Feuds can tear up a server. Folks will take sides. It will become very difficult, at the least, to find folks that we can adventure with. The level of intrigue gets kicked up so high, that no one wants to leave town for fear that their characters are going to be assassinated the second they step outside the gate. How could anyone make a decent level on the server with that kind of pressure? The Drow would show up in town and feel at home. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/laugh.gif ALT=":lol"> 
 
Once again, I'd like to apologize for being a big jerk there. 
 
goatte

Cafall · Post by **Cafall** » Thu Oct 09, 2003 6:59 pm

I'd just like to echo what Yyrkroon said and broaden it a bit: if you want a really good (as in good RP, not good/evil) character, don't let your imagination be strapped in by game mechanics, alignment grid or otherwise. Any more than you'd change your character to fit your chosen voice-set, don't nail him into a little alignment-box. Characters like that are shallow; no one likes shallow people. Come up with your character first, and then simply fit the game mechanics to your character as best you can. 
 
Corvus is LN because he adheres strictly to a personal code... but he still chafes under the thumb of a commander, and he's not about to lie down and let others trample all over him, legally or not. Admittedly, Corvus is not the best character to illustrate my point because he's such a conflicted personality, but you get the idea. A realistic character will not completely follow the bounds of the game mechanics.

AmirahTernAren · Post by **AmirahTernAren** » Thu Oct 09, 2003 10:04 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>There are lots of options that one can do short of PKing, if you're willing to roleplay it. All characters involved must be willing to roleplay this. <hr></blockquote> 
 
i think that Goatte raises a crucial point here. All characters involved must be willing to roleplay the situation. Evil chars have a tendency to do rather unorthodox things, and you need DM supervision most of the time lest the situation gets out of hand, which I have seen happen twice already. 
 
I agree with Yyrika that the alignments are rather stereotypical, yet they are behaviourial guidelines for your char. I do believe that evil char are more interesting and have more potential if they are subtle and not identified. Once it becomes known that they are evil, their potential for nuisance is greatly reduced. Goatte mentionned that people will remember being PKed. And likewise, if they know ooc you are evil (like for pcpaf's cleric where it is written in the description), this will alter their roleplay maybe slightly but it will. 
 
On one of pcpaf's point: I did not realise that most evil char's could use magic. What happens if I want to make an evil fighter or ranger or monk or rogue? 
 
Just a last point, I think the discussion should be more about how to make evil viable on the server rather and what are the limits (as asked initially by Thryllkyll) rather than how to RP or build your character (give it a background and stuff) as the latter could sound condescending, and I do believe most people who play on the Vast know how to make a char and give it a story and a background.

goatte · Post by **goatte** » Thu Oct 09, 2003 10:21 pm

Condescending? Dang, I was, wasn't I? I'm sorry, folks. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/embarassed.gif ALT=":o"> 
 
I agree with AmirahTernAren. Making evil viable on the server is what should be the focus of the thread. I'll shut up about the whole PKing thing now. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/frown.gif ALT=":("> 
 
goatte

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