Lessons learned from Sunday's expedition

goatte · Post by **goatte** » Mon Oct 27, 2003 1:43 am

First I wanted to thank the folks who went with Karn into the Goblin Warrens today. Your participation is appreciated: 
 
Gall, Mendra, Mala, Trent, Gartok, Elrith, Amiolas, Corvus, Tagnar, and Zagreus. 
 
Thanks for the roleplaying. We made it back with quite a bit of gold and no losses. 
 
That said, we came darn close to losing Gall. Luckily, one of us was able to heal him and get him on his feet. We lost Corvus when he accidentally logged out there. Luckily, he had angels watching over him. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)"> 
 
What did we learn from fighting the Drow throughout the Warrens? What we took away, we will be roleplaying in the days ahead. What I'd like to talk about is how we can interact with others in groups. Please note that I am not holding myself up as a shining example here. I got sucked in pretty well by that Drow. Got sucked right out the darn door to the Warrens, when I clicked on the Drow to attack. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/eek.gif ALT=":eek"> We have some bad habits folks that I'd like to bring up for discussion. No finger pointing here. 
 
Point # 1: I've noted the tendency to rush straight at an enemy and hack it down, if possible. That works with Goblins, but not with more powerful enemies. Especially enemies that can outrun us and slow us down with poisons and special wounds. We'll never run down a Drow. I think cheetahs would give up. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/laugh.gif ALT=":lol"> Also, when we make the decision to run down an opponent, we string our forces out, which leaves us coming at our opponents a few at a time at most. Also, when you charge the enemy, you may expose yourself to archers just waiting for a big juicy target. Attacking scattered opponents scatters us in turn, or we take a lot of hits. 
 
Point # 2: The scouts were getting involved in attacking at first, when they should have been scouting and finding out what's ahead. Later in the tunnels, I saw them doing a better job of it. But I also noticed folks joining the scouts who had no business there. We don't need to see the scouts to follow them. They'll find us and tell us what needs fighting. If we hear sounds of battle, we can push forward to help. We needed to give them more time to do their jobs. 
 
Point # 3: Folks die when we have a string of battles run together, as opposed to fighting small battles and healing up as we go. You can't eat a whole boar all at once. You got to carve it into pieces first. Once we complete a battle, there should be no further scouting. Hold in place and wait for folks to heal and then gather for the next battle. 
 
Point # 4: Healers should focus on healing. If you're fighting, you're not doing your job. Fighters fight. Rangers and rogues scout. Clerics and Druids heal. You all have that skill that the rest of us need. If you're able to cast other spells that make us more powerful, great. But healing must come first. We can buy potions for the other things. 
 
Point # 5: Just because you're the obsessed avenger/barbarian/berserker/fanatic priest doesn't mean you have to roleplay foolishly. Read the Conan the Barbarian books for a smart barbarian. He's mean and tough, but he uses his head. Forget about the Schwarzenegger movie version here. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif ALT=":D"> You can hate the [fill in the blank] with a cold, hard hatred, and still be true to your character. Karn's whole clan was slaughtered by Goblins. He hates them more than anything. However, he does know that he can't kill every Goblin ever born. He just wishes he could. Let the flame of hatred burn cooler and longer instead of brighter and quicker. 
 
Point # 6: We can't have more folks in a group than can be seen on screen without scrolling. I didn't follow my own advice today, and I want to tell you all I'm sorry. It was very hard to see who was poisoned or missing based on the list of characters. If I lead a group and get more than 8 folks wanting to join, I will turn folks away. Please don't take it personally when I do. 
 
Point # 7: Many folks found it difficult to log online with the number of folks playing. We may want to look at ways to get the folks online that have commited to play on a certain scout. Should we look at different days or times? The Vast has gotten very popular this weekend. Karn felt run over by all the youngsters in the Vast. It was hard to have a conversation in the Wayfarer with folks talking to the NPCs as part of the mini-quests. Karn will now be based out of River Vesper Landing, so we can meet there for adventures against the Kobolds and the Bandits, especially. Talk to the DMs if you'd like to base out of a certain location. 
 
Point # 8: I'm sure we're all just a little upset right now about how this scout went. Remember two things. We all came back, and we came back with some good loot. *greedy dwarf rubbing grimy hands together* We also came back with some tavern tales to tell the youngsters. Emphasis on the words 'came back.' It wasn't a 'cake walk,' and if it had been, we'd have been bored stiff. Let's all decompress a little and look back at this as a learning experience, if nota good experience. 
 
Again, please don't think I'm pointing fingers here. I want us all to think about today's expedition, and become better players and roleplayers. I've been doing D&D of some sort since the early 80s, but I know I have a ways to go until I'm happy with my own skills. 
 
goatte (karn)

Jeaze Mcleod · Post by **Jeaze Mcleod** » Mon Oct 27, 2003 2:18 am

Eventhough Ashal could not make it to tend the wounds of the injured and aid them in their quest, I have to completely agree with Karn. Most if not all of the tactics explained I have used to ensure Ashal's survival. When engaging a battle with higher level enemies (and that can aflict illness to boot) it is better to go at it in baby steps, and not to rush in like Berserkers under blood lust! 
 
I personally have learned not to behave without thinking ahead mainly becuase of my first couple of characters (Garon Thendt comes into mind) have died miserably and beyond repair becuase they have been set back too much. 
 
I intend to make Ashal an example as much Karn it is right now to many. And to make him last as long as I can muster for the younger generation to learn the value of think before you act. I have been know to clear an entire goblin cave by myself, just because I had patience and knew what to do, when and where. But of course there is always a chance of things going wrong, but that is always present. 
 
I look forward to the next scouts and I hope I would be able to join in next time and kick some green skin butt! <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)">

DarkRitual · Post by **DarkRitual** » Mon Oct 27, 2003 2:25 am

That was a damn good post actually, and almost everything you said is right on. I just want to add a few things. 
 
During that huge battle we had with the Bugbears and Goblin Elites and Drow in the warrens, I kind of lagged, stalled and lost my connection. I tried reconnecting, but the server was full for quite a while and I could not. So Zag is still there in the middle of the warrens, but that's fine, I'll just wait until next server reset to play him and play my other character until then. The lag at that point was pretty bad for me, I don't know about the rest of you. 
 
I think one thing that could be improved upon is people actually getting there on time. Goatjager is always there right on time, as are a few others, but today especially we had quite a few people getting there at 3pm or after. 
 
I personally think the idea of having one day to RP the planning etc, and another day to actually do the scout is great. And for it to work at its full effectiveness, everyone really needs to be there right at 2pm so we can pretty much get underway right away without having to kill time doing nothing. If it's a time problem, then people should feel free to say they can't easily make a certain time and they'd like it to be changed etc, or if you can't make it at all, just say you can't. If we got some sort of list together of everyone who's going to be there, it would make the whole thing alot easier. 
 
I agree to some degree with your RP comments too goatjager, but things like Gall's barbarian eagerness and Zag's hate of the Drow are sometimes just part of the RP experience. Some characters are just Chaotic by alignment and so don't really work too well in an authority structure or make the wisest decisions when it comes to how to do things. I mean seriously, Zag's approach to hunting Drow is WAY off <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/tongue.gif ALT=":p"> but I was planning to actually do some long-term RP of him realizing the error of his ways, and rectifying his mistakes. I wanted to add that there is a reason that he reacts to Drow the way he does, and in many ways he can't control it. Frankly, most Elves have a built in, ancestral hate of the Drow that often goes beyond reason, especially Elves from Cormanthor. Not everything is going to go smoothly and not everyone is going to do the task that their class, etc. should always be doing, but that's just how it goes. One thing in particular is that each the Races approaches general morality and ethics in different ways. Humans and Halflings say, have much different conceptions of morality then Dwarves who in turn have a much different one from Half-Orcs and not to mention Elves (!) which just function on a much different conception than all of them. Zag is brutally attacked often for his views on Half-Orc life/approaches to killing Drow, and that's good, and as it should be. Most Good-Aligned Human characters would find his conceptions to be troubling at best. 
 
That's about all I have to say. And I say it in a completely constructive criticism sense. I am in alot of ways fairly new to RP (though I try) and therefore could be wrong about alot, so bear with me. I don't want to come off as the new guy who's trying to give alot of advice to the pros, so forgive me if that's how it comes off. It's not my intent. 
 
I want to add that each scout I've been to, including todays, have been great fun, and I think you (goatjager) are doing a great job organizing/planning them, and really driving them forward. It adds alot to the already great server. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif ALT=":D"> 
 
-DarkRitual (Zagreus)

Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub188.ezboard.com/bthevast.showUserPublicProfile?gid=darkritual@thevast>DarkRitual</A> at: 10/27/03 1:01 am

bmm0321 · Post by **bmm0321** » Mon Oct 27, 2003 2:41 am

Good post, Karn, and good follow ups. 
 
To point out one thing: Gall is not a typical barbarian. He is a Rashemi beserker, and comes from a tradition of closing with the enemy to kill. It does not matter to the Rashemi warrior what the odds are: they stopped the Tuigan Horde cold, they have defeated every enemy for 1500 years by closing with them and overwhelming them with sheer -- well, barbarism. They do not fear death, for to die in battle is an honorable thing (but to give it foolishly is another matter). Lastly, in every encounter IC that Gall has had with those who wield magic and those who use missile attacks, he has learned there is one salient tactic that works: close with them, and hit them repeatedly with an axe. 
 
This accomplishes two things: it forces the missile user/magic user to focus on the attack, thereby reducing the risk to the group; second, it gives the group time to adjust to the tactical situation. Gall is tough (i.e., in game terms, has a lot of hp), he can stand for several rounds against overwhelming odds, and relishes that role, for it is what Rashemi beserkers do. But not if the rest of the party stands around with various digits stuck in various orafices. 
 
It seems (from Gall's point of view) that some let their fear of the drow impact their willingness to give combat, to put their bodies in harm's way, and this latest experience will bear itself out in RP in the days ahead, for in his world view to fail to give battle is less than honorable. 
 
But, to reiterate Karn: everyone came back, and sometimes that is as successful as you can hope for. 
 
bmm 
(Kerentin Gall and Card Kelm) 
<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/pimp.gif ALT=":hat">

Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub188.ezboard.com/bthevast.showUserPublicProfile?gid=bmm0321>bmm0321</A> at: 10/26/03 10:51 pm

arolar · Post by **arolar** » Mon Oct 27, 2003 3:20 am

I actually did not plan to come on the hunt since I missed the Saturday session. I was 3rd level on Saturday and I did not want to go along at that point. I made 4th level late Saturday and I saw all of you there. Karn was nice to invite me in. 
 
In the future if I plan to go on a hunt with Karn I will either post or talk about it with other characters in the game before hand. If I just show up like I did today no hard feelings if there is no room. 
 
By the way it was a good hunt. I did not die! 
 
Arolar (Gartok)

pcpaf · Post by **pcpaf** » Mon Oct 27, 2003 11:57 am

I just want to tell you that goatjager is not allways there on time. We had a "nob" scout where he came 30min late becource of it was more importent for him to going around in the north. I don´t think that it is very nice of him to let at least to new players on the Vast wait for him to show up when I tell the that they can be in a great Event. But the scouts are goatjagers idea and he can do what he want when he want to. 
 
I like the scouts. they make some good RPing and let more people learn how to work together and meet. 
 
My only problem in the scouts is that we always end up speaking about what to do in the middle of the "event". 
I belive Karn is the leader on the trip and he is saying what way to go, and if he needs to know what a other charecter thinks.. then he can ask. That will remove some of the small problem we have in the Event. 
 
I hope you will make alot more scouts and I will try to be in all of them. Good work <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif ALT=":D">

Post by **Algernon's Ghost** » Mon Oct 27, 2003 4:18 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>And I say it in a completely constructive criticism sense. I am in alot of ways fairly new to RP (though I try) and therefore could be wrong about alot, so bear with me. I don't want to come off as the new guy who's trying to give alot of advice to the pros, so forgive me if that's how it comes off. It's not my intent.<hr></blockquote> 
 
Zag, you are doing a great job portraying the obsessive elven hatred of drow - no other race despises them more than surface elves. I am also enjoying your attitude toward half-orcs, frankly all civilized races are not fond of the brutish half-breeds, and I for one do not see enough prejudice against them in game. Sorry all you half-orcs out there, but that's just how the player character races view you.

They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security. 
-Benjamin Franklin

Post by **Algernon's Ghost** » Mon Oct 27, 2003 4:21 pm

With regard to being on time: 
 
This one started almost two hours late. That is just a bit much, 15-30 minutes is very forgiveable, we all have delays in life. If you plan to be there, try to get there on time or even early. 
 
I will also look into temporarily increasing the server player limit for these things in the future.

They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security. 
-Benjamin Franklin

Post by **Algernon's Ghost** » Mon Oct 27, 2003 4:59 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Lastly, in every encounter IC that Gall has had with those who wield magic and those who use missile attacks, he has learned there is one salient tactic that works: close with them, and hit them repeatedly with an axe.<hr></blockquote> 
 
He will find that Elrieth Jaelre fights up close just as well as at range. Oh well, I guess barbarians just have to learn these things the hard way, like you said, it will at least be an honorable death.

They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security. 
-Benjamin Franklin

bmm0321 · Post by **bmm0321** » Mon Oct 27, 2003 7:54 pm

Heh heh. Gall likes little frail drow elf stand still for axe <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)"> 
 
bmm 
<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/pimp.gif ALT=":hat">

KvasirDin · Post by **KvasirDin** » Mon Oct 27, 2003 9:47 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Zag, you are doing a great job portraying the obsessive elven hatred of drow - no other race despises them more than surface elves. I am also enjoying your attitude toward half-orcs, frankly all civilized races are not fond of the brutish half-breeds, and I for one do not see enough prejudice against them in game. Sorry all you half-orcs out there, but that's just how the player character races view you.<hr></blockquote> 
 
Oddly enough, I agree on this point. I haven't met anyone that's been outright rude to Vugdishnak, but I have gotten a bit of the cold shoulder from most players at first meeting. Just doesn't seem chill enough....then again, maybe it is Vug's charming personality that just begs people to like him. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)"> 
 
Vugdishnak

thryllkill · Post by **thryllkill** » Mon Oct 27, 2003 11:29 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Just doesn't seem chill enough....then again, maybe it is Vug's charming personality that just begs people to like him.<hr></blockquote> 
 
it could also have something to do with the fact that there are a rather large number of half-orcs in the Vast right now. Not a lot, like an overpowering number, but more than I assume there would be naturally. By the time I meet another half-orc, my character is so used to seeing them, it doesn't really phase her much. As a halfling she tried to avoid them, but most of the half-orcs in game are so polite she feels rude avoiding them, and thus tries to include them as much as possible (though I am sure having your head at waist level on a half-orc can not be pleasant)

bombastinator · Post by **bombastinator** » Mon Oct 27, 2003 11:35 pm

I am fascinated by this technical rundown i have always wanted to observe field tactics implemented in this game. For those interested in the subject the best nuts and bolts volume I know of (rather than more conceptual one's such as sun tzu and the book of five rings) Is Clausewitz on war. It's 1800s and therefore includes musket and cannon tactics, but it follows order of battle and such things, and his constant sayings (positively clausewitzian in fact, if you've ever heard that term used, it's grown out of date) make for good military banter. The book is a lot like watching casablanca in that you hear all these lines you considered hackneyed until you realize that this is where they came from originally. While the thing gives new meaning to thick, it is available from project gutenburg at <a href="http://www.ibiblio.org/gutenberg/cgi-bin/sdb/t9.cgi/t9.cgi?entry=1946&full=yes&ftpsite=ftp://indian.cse.msu.edu/pub/mirrors/Gutenberg/">www.ibiblio.org/gutenberg...Gutenberg/</a>

randy jordan · Post by **randy jordan** » Tue Oct 28, 2003 12:06 am

I for one, have played a half-orc since I started her on the Vast. There have been several half-orcs I have met, but I rarely meet one more than once. Seems people log on, play them one time, then move on to something else... with a few exceptions. 
I have not experienced open hostility (although Thurgrin has been pretty close), but have been shunned, and avoided, insulted and ignored. But then again, Lugdush is one of the "polite" half-orcs you were talking about. But he also wasn't raised in orcish environs. I don't know... I have been RP treated badly, but have a lot of friends who know Lugdush's true nature, and vouch for him, so I for one, do not get treated too bad. I doubt if I were a "typical" half-orc, I would get treated anywhere near as well (perhaps WHY you only see most half-orcs on the Vast for their first visit). 
 
BTW: sorry I missed the scout, would have loved to be there. With the fires here in San Diego, I spent most of the day helping a friend get her stuff out of her house in case she needed to evacuate. Then after I came back home, the wind shifted (again) and ended up having to load our most valuable belongings into my car... we never had to leave, but a few blocks up was evacuated. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/frown.gif ALT=":("> 
Hope things get back to normal here real soon. For right now, I am out of work... the area I work has been evacuated. 
 
Randy

thryllkill · Post by **thryllkill** » Tue Oct 28, 2003 3:00 am

I've never acutally spoken to Lugdush, but have been in the same room. ;o) 
 
Between Lugdush and Urguggug (I know I screwed that up) and one other who I've run into once or twice, you are right. They are there one night, gone the next.

The Vast

Lessons learned from Sunday's expedition

Lessons learned from Sunday's expedition

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Re: Lessons learned from Sunday's expedition

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Re: Lessons learned from Sunday's expedition

Re: Lessons learned from Sunday's expedition

Re: Lessons learned from Sunday's expedition

Re: Lessons learned from Sunday's expedition

Re: Lessons learned from Sunday's expedition

Re: Lessons learned from Sunday's expedition

Re: Lessons learned from Sunday's expedition

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