In-character Player Conflicts

Saxjamm · Post by **Saxjamm** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 7:39 pm

This is a very corny subject title, but I wanted to be clear about my questioning. 
 
Lately, we've had some issues concerning how players should react to each other when "physical" altercation becomes an issue. What I'd like to know, if anyone wants to take a gander, is what the protocol is, or should be, when this happens. How far should things be taken when the "dice bags" come into play, when a DM isn't present, etc. etc. 
 
To start, it is made quite clear that there is simply NO PK's allowed, unless expressly authorized by a DM, or if you are blatantly attacked against the rules. So actually initiating combat without permission is not allowed. 
 
But there have been situations where the sword is drawn, or people play characters with wild tempers. The dice bags work to an extent, but can be quite slow and tedious. So, with the "situations" being brought up lately, how far should the dice bags take us? 
 
Should we only roleplay pushes and shoves? It can take a while for a DM to be available or even respond to the players. Some situations occur off-the-cuff, with no warning. How should we go about it best? I've always been confused by that notion. It kind of gets bland, confusing, and just plain hard to sit there and type all of the actions out> "My character swings thirteen punches at your head". Should "simulated" combat be even used with the dice bags? Or should we hold off all physical aspects and simply role play events until a DM can be reached. 
 
And how should players go about it with each other? I mean, it would be almost rude for me to be roleplaying one minute, and then the next I call a DM and ask if I can slay you, all without you knowing it. Not that it would anger me if it happened to me, but others may not appreciate it. 
 
We know the basic rules, and we know that we shouldn't attempt to make every IC interaction become some kind of foolish brawl (like a level 2 character deciding that it's alright to push and shove a level 6 fighter or ranger around). What should be the protocol of the whole thing?

ShyVast · Post by **ShyVast** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 8:00 pm

It is in Farawen's character to physically defend herself or those she considers to be part of her pack, and this is what I've come up with to work around actually reducing a character's HP. 
First off, she hates thieves, and has encountered a few with no DM on. When provoked, she gives them a real threat, not a death threat though. The two theives she has threatened with " try to steal again and you will pull back your hand with a few less fingers" has worked, so far they have backed down, but now they know that if they DO try again, I will make a roll to hurt them. So giving warning threats that are more than "I will kill you" works as well. 
 
She's also made dex rolls to sneak in and bite people, AG and Valens, for example. It doesn't reduce HP, but it was rped as an injury by both parties. You could do the same with rping hitting someone with the flat of the blade, or the pommel of the sword, and roll for damage. 
 
This won't solve the problem, but it's enough to get you started.

Amirsyl · Post by **Amirsyl** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 9:34 pm

As far as asking a DM to slay someone without them knowing, it is the way it is done but they are warned by the DM. 
 
I had a player ask a DM for permission to kill one of my characters, Lydia Jaden. The DM sent me a tell asking me if I accept this in OOC fashion through a tell. I replied that Lydia would defend herself if need be. 
 
We were given 1 hour to RP it out. 
 
That is how my case was handled with a DM on. Without one, you are always allowed to defend yourself. Hit Print Screen button to capture the act and the fight log at the bottom of the screen. This will prove who the aggressor was and it will be investigated by a DM later. I personally will hold to the code that I will at least make an aggressor flee from me if I am attacked. I would try to keep them from dying at all costs. My characters both have good alignments. 
 
That should also come into play. Your alignment as well. 
 
The best way to RP a fight out without a DM, would be to use a dice bag. Parry and Strength roles are one way. You can RP the damage. So for all intensive purposes, you have a winner and a loser through physical means without death. You can always wait until a DM shows up later and ask them. 

-Amir 
 
~ Thus were the Elves born from the blood of Corellon Larethian, mixed with the soil of the world, blessed with the tears of the moon, and given their nearness to divinity. ~Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub188.ezboard.com/bthevast.showUserPublicProfile?gid=amirsyl>Amirsyl</A> at: 3/11/04 6:10 pm

Saxjamm · Post by **Saxjamm** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 9:50 pm

Good suggestions so far. 
 
but I have a few more issues to raise. 
 
So we use these dice bags to deal with physical altercations when DM is not present. Fine with me. On the other hand, since the dice bag doesn't actually off combat rolls, how do we go about doing that kind of stuff. What do we do when a situation like this happens? 
 
"Bob unsheaths his sword and attempts to hack your fingers off" Strength check: 19+8 = 27 (uh oh) 
 
So now what? I roll a Dex check, and either avoid it or get hit? And then what? 
 
"Jim only receives a scratch" 
 
etc. etc. etc. 
 
Good roleplay and such will only get you so far. You never know what kind of rper you are facing. No one wants their epic hero to lose a fight, get injured, etc. (well, some do). To date, Zato has never been in a PvP altercation of that kind, so I speak from no experience of it. 
 
Sometimes, the situation will play itself out mildly and beautifully. However, depending on some situations, it can just plain turn ugly when the dice bag is involved, because on some level, you become involved in the matter. I guess it would be important to make the statements almost as "neutral" as possible. So, Bob would instead say: 
 
"Bob unsheaths his sword and swings it at you." 
 
Then Jim makes up the rest of it. But then it's up to the other player to play it out correctly. As long as our personal interests are involved in the fighting, it can either be done super well, or super ugly. Which is why I was always intersted in the "subdual" stuff, but that's a non-issue at this point. 
 
I'm not trying to claim that we have fights in the Vast every single day or week, but I am wondering just exactly how things should be done, and to what level it should be taken. Then again, I haven't played in almost a week now, so I can't say I've been giving it much thought. The replies so far make sense, but that's how those situations played out. There has to be situations where things have kind of fallen apart. Or maybe the server has been real lucky at getting good players all the time.

Amirsyl · Post by **Amirsyl** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 10:10 pm

Okay, I have to get back to work so this will be quick. 
 
Try this... 
 
Role a parry check... 
 
Attacker roles strength check to beat the roll.... 
 
Switch turns until you are satisfied. 
 
IE: You roll a 17 on parry check first. 
 
He rolls 17 or higher on strength and hit's your arse or wherever. 
 
Mind, This can be done many different ways. This is, by far, not the end all be all for this type of thing. It is just how I used Amir once to fence with Siril. We typed out the interactions like... he swipes his swords at your legs. He replies with... he jumps the blades and returns with a jab at your chest... 
 
Not the only way by any means. 

-Amir 
 
~ Thus were the Elves born from the blood of Corellon Larethian, mixed with the soil of the world, blessed with the tears of the moon, and given their nearness to divinity. ~Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub188.ezboard.com/bthevast.showUserPublicProfile?gid=amirsyl>Amirsyl</A> at: 3/11/04 6:10 pm

ish07 · Post by **ish07** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 10:32 pm

You're also free to make a standard attack roll against your target's ac, or perhaps a reflex save. Roll a single d20, add your attack bonus, and then have your opponent make a reflex save to avoid the blow. If they barely lose the check, consider it a glancing blow, and if they succeed, the completely avoid the blow. If the attack roll beats the heck out of the reflex, consider it a vicious connection. Example: 
 
Michael Jackson and Captain Snuggles have exchanged words, and look ready to fight. Captain Snuggles loses his cool and throws a punch. 
 
CS rolls a d20, gets a 9, manually adds in his attack bonus, say 6, so total 15. MJ rolls a reflex save, after modifiers gets a 25. 
 
"Captain Snuggles throws a vicious right hook, but Michael Jackson easily moonwalks out of range. He spins once, lets out a high pitched shout, and aims a foot at Captain Snuggles' crotch." 
 
MJ rolls attack roll 1 (automatic miss, no matter what). CS rolls a reflex save of 18. 
 
"Michael Jackson clumsily lifts a foot toward Captain Snuggles' groin. Captain Snuggles easily sidesteps the offending foot and slaps Michael once for even thinking about it." 
 
CS rolls a natural 20 on his attack roll, to which MJ responds with a reflex save of 8. 
 
"Captain Snuggles slaps Michael Jackson hard across the face, spilling him to the ground and turning his plastic nose sideways." 
 
Just another idea. 
 
Ish.

Innuvindyl · Post by **Innuvindyl** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:23 pm

lol Ish <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)"> 
 
... 
 
Having been in quite a few brawls with Ana, I suppose I should voice myself. The dicebag is all we need, only once have I asked for PvP permission as past of a brawl (funnily enough, that was on Serion <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)"> ), it was handled in the way that I asked into the DM channel for a PvP permission and Psi came up asking about the situation (all the while still RPing it out with Serion), then he asked Serion if he was fine with the PvP and apparently he siad 'yes' since I got the permission and was told his current HP etc. What actually happened, was that at the time I had obtained the full permission we had RPed it out completely and Ana's anger was waning so he survived the day. 
 
I really often draw my blade in the brawls (though never with the intention of actually using it), I try to RP it out in a way that Ana won't lose too much face by leaving, if that is the only option. I have no specific way of going about the Dicebag usage, I generally make it up underways but as a guideline I say that if the target has any idea that I'm going to hit him, they get a save otherwise I just hit with no chance of escape (that is usually the first time that she connects physically, after that the target should be real dumb to not be aware). 
And yes, it's important (and hard) that you write up your attempt at your action, so that you can write up a miss or hit, whatever is the result of the dicebag. 
 
Another note is, that in many of my brawls with a lot of people interacting with it (either trying to get her cooled down, or trying to stand between etc etc.) it gets very confusing with all the dicerolls and emotes that you have to take into account. So it would be nice if people would try and slow down their actions leaving room for the dicerolls to occur.

Ecclessia · Post by **Ecclessia** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:40 pm

"Captain Snuggles throws a vicious right hook, but Michael Jackson easily moonwalks out of range. He spins once, lets out a high pitched shout, and aims a foot at Captain Snuggles' crotch." 
 
LOL <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/roll.gif ALT=":rollin"> 
 
Nice...

Jiian · Post by **Jiian** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:58 pm

Dex and reflex do not enter into combat in normal situations and I don't believe they should in RP situations either. If Vaar were being attacked in actuality he would be hit quite easily, but a dex check can always roll way over his AC. alternately a plate mail sporting fighter may roll a horrible dex check, but his AC is high enough that he wouldn't have been hit otherwise. Fights should use AC and attack bonus not str vs ref or dex. remember! -4 attack penalty for nonlethal damage unless you are a monk. (but this is a rule that might be waived as we don't have any special weapons to deal nonlethal in the game. 
 
Edit: I also would like to remind that actually attacking is a Bad Idea. 
 
You may kill someone by accident. I know that one of me characters was nearly killed by another character as a warning shot, because he didn't realize that he'd be sneak attacking me. Also critical hits are possible and possibly fatal if made by someone with decent strength on the average third level character or lower.

Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub188.ezboard.com/bthevast.showUserPublicProfile?gid=jiian@thevast>Jiian</A> at: 3/11/04 8:22 pm

Sucelus · Post by **Sucelus** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 12:38 am

Well. I´ll enter the lot as one PC mine got a serious issue with another PC. 
 
The first thing to do is use good sense. 
To know when roll hability and to know when roll attack. 
 
I would say specific thing should be rolled Hability and combat or good old full brawl attack normal combat. 
 
Let make an example of how a situation was handled. 
 
X Sneaked Y and put a blade on his throat while saying " don´t move" Unfortunatly for X, Y is a highly trained military men with 10 years of combat in various military corps and mercs company´s on his back and this is no new to him. 
While X is still speaking Y make a grab for X arm 
How to solve ? 
 
Y roll a dex throw got a result (21) (20+1) 
X roll a dex throw got a result below Y (7) (X+some) 
So we can assume : 
1) By the wideness beetween the rolls The offender trying to surprise is totally taken pants down by the answer of the defender. 
 
2) the the defender is SO (natural 20) succeful in his action and can pass to next Act without even fearing an answer from the agressor. 
 
Y roll a strenght dice 11 (8+3) 
X roll it too 2 (1) 
 
Result : 
Y even not doing great is way above X. 
 
Roleplay : 
"while your saying to not move, Y take you arm and twist" 
 
We know that so far the offender failed is attemp and the situation reversed. X arm is twisted violently by a very strong PC +3 STR bonus. 
 
Now we must know how X body react to the violence. 
(Now it get some problem as i am from old school so i need your help, i give a solution but suggestions are highly welcome ) 
In my time to succed a roll like that you needed to score BELOW your stat, if so your body soak the agression without much hurt. But the dice Roll Add the const bonus to the dice. 
So i think a dice 20 should be used but this time we used a const check. 
X get 15 Final score Above his const (15-1) 14, const 12 
 
" As your arm is twisted a SNAP his heard Your arm is broken at the elbow " (weak arm point to twistes) 
" While the pain get on you and you hold your arm curved upon yourself Y spin and try to kick your face" 
 
So now we got to know how stunned is X by the broken arm, to know if he´s even able to react to the aggression. 
X roll a Const check again 11 (12-1), below his const, so he´s not stunned and can try to avoid the incoming boot, but we should imput a penalty. 
 
We know this is a called shot (specific part) and called shot get -4 on attack roll. 
 
Y roll his attack (here can be a strenght roll as strenght bonus will already be included) and add his bonus per level. 
Roll 11 +2 (lvl 2 fighter) = 13 - 4 (called shot total) 9. 
 
X roll a dext shot (try to avoid kick while unable to attack, i consider it a full parry) 
Got 16 (16-1) 15. So X aviod the boot. and start running into town to adress his wound while swearing vengeance etc etcetc. 
 
It may seem long here but its not. And if done orderly its fun for the others to watch. 
 
What would have happened if Y had succeded. 
Damage would have been rolled and a combat would have been rolled. Due to previous wound X probably would have sprawled on the floor (kicked on the face at full strenght from some 17 STR character while holding a broken arm !!! , and Y 
Would have been able to do a lot of things....

Amirsyl · Post by **Amirsyl** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 1:25 am

Part of your AC is the simple fact that you can dodge blows. This is exactly how DEX comes into play during battle. For characters that wear light and medium armor, they rely on their DEX to boost AC. 
 
It has everything to do with AC as it is a blend of your armor type and reflexes in battle. 
 
It would be ideal to use your STR rolls against AC. But, there is no check for AC with the dice bag. You have to go by the honor system if you go that route. 
 
Parry, and DEX checks are perfect for fencing IMHO. Think of dueling swordsmen. If you are caught without your armor on, I am sure you'd want to use DEX rolls. It let's your character defend themselves just as they would if they use Parry. But, if you are actually trying to stab or attack a character AC would be needed. 
 
I suppose it all come down to agreeing with the other person before anything happens as far as dice rolling goes. 

-Amir 
 
~ Thus were the Elves born from the blood of Corellon Larethian, mixed with the soil of the world, blessed with the tears of the moon, and given their nearness to divinity. ~Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub188.ezboard.com/bthevast.showUserPublicProfile?gid=amirsyl>Amirsyl</A> at: 3/11/04 9:28 pm

Saxjamm · Post by **Saxjamm** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 3:41 am

Aha! More issues are raised. Me like much. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/tongue.gif ALT=":b"> 
 
The post Jiian made, however, was the most enlightening so far. It seems we are all a bit "iffy" in terms of how the rules should work and what does what. 
 
Now, granted, as pointed out, many of the examples given worked out just fine. RP situations were resolved, so there is no problem. However, I am enjoying what I am reading. And, in addition to that, it does seem that in some situations, "mock combat" situations have been a bit too simplified. Granted, the end result was just fine, and no one has hard feelings on the matter, but it is clear that there are many ways that a dicebag battle can go very "badly" for some parties, just judging on base stats. There is no "AC" roll, unfortunately, and dexterity sometimes really can't be a factor. What if I have a dex bonus of +4? But my AC, since I'm not a combat oriented person, is actually just 13? Hmm... things change a bit. 
 
It seems that we have two trends. In some instances, the dice bag is more or less used for less "serious" confrontations. 
 
Pee Wee Herman daintily flings his arm at Cowboy Curtis (who was played by Lawrence Fishburne, of all people! go figure) to give him a little bump. 
 
Here we assume that it's not really actual "combat". No one is aiming to actually fight or cause serious harm... just make some anger known. So here we can safely assume that Cowboy Curtis could use his dex to play the situation out. 
 
Cowboy Curtis rolls, gets higher roll, decides that he gets pushed but easily moves his body to direct the blow and stand his ground. If he fails the roll, he'll do a constitution check and see how bad the shove gets to him, taking into account the nature of the shove. 
 
 
But when you get into blade to the neck kind of things, that's where it seems we may be a bit lax. Seculus' example... I suppose I can agree with how it played out. Fair enough. But there are other times where this may happen. Despite what training or background we have in our characters, we do need to have some kind of standardized method of going about it, I suppose. 
 
the -4 penalty to non-lethal intent is an example that we've been ignoring. If you're going to be lethal, you're basically going to be having actual combat, which is not allowed. However, if you're going to do stuff like knocking people out, which is non-lethal, we've been blissfully unaware of how to play it out. Offenders with high dex have been magically weasling themselves out of restraints... and high strength people have sometimes just brazenly knocked their opponents out. 
 
This topic is interesting to me though, at least. Is it possible to get an "AC" roll in the dice bags, or would that be a useless, time consuming venture?

Innuvindyl · Post by **Innuvindyl** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 5:35 am

There is another factor to take into account as well: Time! 
 
Having a lot of dicerolls to make an intricate fighting with attacks and counterattacks etc. is fine as long as it is only involving 2-4 persons... but as soon as there are more than this around, the amount of dicebag rolls needs to be shortened and you need to simplify it to a couple of rolls, since otherwise the situation falls apart. 
 
*shrugs* just my two coins...

Haldir Lunamist · Post by **Haldir Lunamist** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 9:53 am

isn't there a sub-dual system that can be used by the DM? having to dice roll all these things are fine for short combats but I can see that it will just lead to further heated exchanges between the two or more combatants and someone crying out unfair or incorrect abililty rolls. 
 
If a subdual system is not workable and there is no DM maybe we should agree to post the PnP rules of the subdual system and make it a sticky so that when it happens again the rules are clearly spelled out. It would be nice to have the DM just oversee the combat but they can't and won't be around 24/7 for that. I think we should take it upon ourselves to figure it out. 
 
I for one am not even very familiar with the PnP subdual combat so I'm heading straight for my sourcebooks to go read up on it, and maybe we should all do that to refreshen our memories. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">

Thurgrin Axebender · Post by **Thurgrin Axebender** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 12:55 pm

Unfortunately, subdual isn't working very well. 
The way it was to work in the Vast, was that you enter into "non-lethal" combat. Your character takes damage from being hit etc.. upon reaching 0 HPs, you fall down unconscious. The downside is that when you fall (depending on how severe of a beating you took) determines how many of your items are dropped. Major possibility for abuse there. 
 
There is also the chance (due to lag, area transition, patches breaking the scripts etc) that something goes wrong and your character is literally beaten to death. 
 
Now as for Dice-bag Combat (tm), everything should begin with an Initiative roll (d20 + DEX bonus). 
 
Then consider the type of combat involved: melee (weapons involved or RP'd) or grapple (bare-fisted brawling). 
 
In the case of melee type combat, it would be a to-hit roll (d20 + STR bonus + feat/skill bonus + racial bonus) vs. AC. 
 
In the case of bare knuckle brawling type combat: then the to-hit roll would be calculated as d20+STR bonus vs. AC. 
If you wanted to engage in mud-'ras'lin' (that's mud-wrestling fer all o' yeh unedjemacaited types), then calculate a to-hit roll vs. AC to see if you get your hands on them, then figure out a grapple check (attacker's STR check vs. defender's STR or DEX whichever is higher). 
 
If the other person doesn't want to say what their AC is then look at what they're wearing. Without armor, and giving them the benefit of the doubt, a DEX of 12, assign them a minimum AC11 then RP pummeling the tar out of them. If the defender doesn't agree, then they better 'fess up to the real AC. 
 
If someone doesn't want to abide or play along then ... ummm... sic' the ghost or the dragon on them... or don't RP with them again. 
 
All encounters of this type should always be treated as "non-lethal" unless you know for a fact a DM is around and permission has been given for lethal combat. 

<hr /> 
 
Dwarf: Tak natu yenet 
Common: 'til next we meet 
 
~ Thurgrin Axebender 
Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub188.ezboard.com/bthevast.showUserPublicProfile?gid=thurgrinaxebender>Thurgrin Axebender</A> at: 3/12/04 9:06 am

The Vast

In-character Player Conflicts

In-character Player Conflicts

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Subdual & assorted things