Racial/social/cultural attitudes in the Forgotten Realms.

Post by **Algernon's Ghost** » Tue Jan 06, 2004 10:29 pm

Copied from a thread on our old ezboard forums.

Racial Tensions
Racial tensions are not played well by the majority of characters on the server. In general, I think most people are quite squeamish about being racist, while this is good for real life (and it gives me hope for the real world), it is very bad for a FR based FRPG.

Example: I see way too many elves (particularly females) snuggling up to half-orc characters. These two races typically hate each other (with plenty of good reason), and I want to see this played truer to character more - I have said this in other posts as well. In truth, half-orcs are not accepted in any civilized community, but most are played like giant teddy bears. (Psilax recently commented to me how it is like a sweet little halfling girl trapped in a giant gross half-orc body).

We are not actively punishing characters who are not played to their race, but I for one will give a lot more xp to characters who demonstrate the proper dose of racial tension, or even hatred. Playing your race well is one of the top concerns I have when awarding rp xp - keep that in mind folks.

Cultural Background
Yes, your character's cultural background is always a factor, but some racial types are likely to never leave behind their generalizations - again the elven point of view toward half-orcs - as they are long lived, have even longer memories, and these attitudes are too strongly ingrained in their psyche. In these cases, these attitudes are not without good reason either.

Humans are the most likely to vary, as they are inherently flexible, in fact, much more flexible than any of the other races, which is why they are now the dominant race on Faerun.

Still, some severe racial attitudes should be adhered to, and exceptions should be rare on the order of rarity associated with the occurrence of 'good' drow. Playing a low charisma half-orc true to its nature is generally not fun, so most players will not really do it, and we end up with an abundance of gentle giants wandering around who are loved and accepted by the community. This is another scenario which is very untrue according the predominant social attitudes in the Forgotten Realms regarding any half-orc (low or normal charisma). You will see very few NPCs react positively toward half-orcs, because that is how all civilized non-orc races react to seeing a half-orc in their midst.

ShyVast · Post by **ShyVast** » Tue Jan 06, 2004 10:45 pm

I agree with AG, and here are my tips, humble though they may be. First, decide before you have made your character (or if you have not for an exisiting character, do it right now) which races they will be bias for or against, or indifferent to. Then take the individual characters and begin with this bias, and then decide what would allow you to change this bias. 
 
For example, here are Farawen's bias's.. maybe it will help, maybe I'll just look foolish... 
 
In the case of Gartok, Farawen does respect him because he saved Averas' life, and to her saving the life of a pack-member makes you an ally to the pack, if not part of it. However, she stays wary of other half-orcs, for example, the one she bit, but as she has not had much experience with half-orcs she approaches them with caution. 
 
Farawen tends to mistrust humans, due to a personal experience, she considers them rash, irrationonal, gold-hungry, and hard to predict. She trusts Satultrix because she is a respectable druid who favors nature over civilization, and because of Satultrix's dislike for her own race. 
 
As for dwarves, she has little personal experience with them, but she has a racial history, and she views them also as gold-grasping and greedy. She also finds it unnatural that a race would willingly forsake the open sky to live underground. 
 
Because of her two biases she does not partake in RubenNathamgate, save to guard Corvus' back. 
 
For halflings, the first one she met was a thief, and the second defended her, so she is still considering them. 
 
As for elves, she has the highest opinion of wild elves, followed by elves dedicated to life in the woodlands, and find most habits and manners of 'civilized elves' strange and silly, and again thinks the way of the Green is best, and the lifestyle of elves truest to nature and the weave, and the way of the ancient world. 
 
Drow she will kill on sight, without question, without waiting to hear the Drow's intention. Same goes for any sort or imp or demon or teifling. 
 
So the biases exist, but they are flexible.

Averas · Post by **Averas** » Wed Jan 07, 2004 12:31 am

Hee Hee, i was mentioned and being the most whimsical elf on the server i guess i should put in my two cents. 
 
Averas *grin*: 
 
Averas is not exactly what you call "worldly" he has spent his entire life withing the bounds of cormanthor being taught by green elves who know little of the other races anyway, the only other race besides the wandering human or elf he has really encountered is the drow. 
 
Because of his experiences he tries to find the best in people, a half-orc who he had only heard stories about in cormanthor saves his life from the river, such an experience will generally open you up to a new way of thinking, although he is not exactly trusting of half-orcs at first he may begin to like them if he finds that they lean toward the human blood rather than the orcish 
 
Averas finds the diversity of humans amazing and chaotic, the fact that no two are the same and their personalities range so greatly intrigues him to no end, also the fact that they tend to have a sense of humor is always an up. 
 
ok i guess dwarves are next, well since averas had never seen a dwarf before coming to the dale and his first experience was with karn and thurgrin going out and hunting goblins, he is willing to trust them at first sight. he finds most of them jovial and stong as the mountain's stone as then say. 
 
ruben-natham thing...... well ruben is his friend and natham saved his arse from the drow (intentionally or not you did natham) so he won't help or hinder either side 
 
halflings, pera is really his only halfing friend, he has met so few that he really doesn't know what ot think, though a few more have appeared on the vast so he might finally decide 
 
there is one of the surface races that Averas does not trust, gnomes his only true experience with this race was with Ashby *shivers* after meeting this dereanged little bugger he cannot honestly trust any gnome at first glance thinking his lust for the dark gems of necromantic magic might run through them all 
 
although averas trustes elves there are certain reservations in his mind whenever he deals with the gold, he has never really recovered from the gold that betrayed his tribe to the drow and probebly never will 
 
drow, averas may say that there is potentential for good in all races, but averas' actions will definately speak louder than words, when the time comes averas will attack first and talk after the drow is dead. 
 
also thier are certain classes that must also be considered here, averas' mother was a wizard but she though like a green and that is how he has learned the ways of magic, such as the relationship between familar and caster is not a master servant relationship, but more of a bond, like that of family and love, he also feels that joining with a familar is the bonding between souls so anyone who is bonded to a demon should either renouce such things or they are evil themselves. from what he has seen of most other wizards he judges them soley on how they treat their familiar companion, if at any moment they do not treat their familar with the respect he thinks they deserve he feels that they have no right to the powers they have, the same goes for sorcerers but he has only really met one and that is pera =) (pixies are cool good luck)

arolar · Post by **arolar** » Wed Jan 07, 2004 2:25 am

As a half-orc on this server I am trying to play one who was raised with no contact with half-orc or orcs at all during his childhood except as enemies of the human village in which he was raised. His earliest knowledge of orcs is that he knows what his orc father did to his mother before he left her for dead. I guess *sighs* I am not doing this right. 
 
With that being said Gartok makes friends or allies the following ways: 
 
1. Gartok fights a close battle and helps another person win the day against a dangerous foe. This happens mostly on the organized hunts but has happened in other situations. I would think this is the most likely case where it would be acceptable that a person would tolerate or even want to have Gartok around. 
 
2. A new player character comes up and asks Gartok a "newbie" question about what there is to do in town and things like that. (Gartok may say "Hullo" first.) Since Gartok is a follower of Torm he is generally helpful and the person likes Gartok because he helped them. Of course, if the player is an elf or a dwarf they should not come up to him in the first place. This kind of thing usually happens during times that I am playing Gartok and the server has very few other players, so the new player is looking for someone to talk to even if it is a half-orc. I know this is not really right but it happens because the new player wants to interact with someone. 
 
3. A player character at first distrusts Gartok but is convinced by others who have fought by his side that Gartok is a defender of the Dale even if though he is a half-orc. This happens very rarely in and of itself. More often the player character hears about Gartok and then observes him fighting Bugbears or whatever and decides that Gartok may be an asset to the Dale. 
 
I would also say that there are some player characters that walk right up to Gartok having never met him with no fear or animosity at all. This is most definitely wrong especially if the person is playing a dwarf or elf. 
 
I just thought I would say something about this. In the end I am just trying to have a good time and make the Vast fun for others. 
 
-Arolar (Gartok and Barushka)

Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub188.ezboard.com/bthevast.showUserPublicProfile?gid=arolar>arolar</A> at: 1/6/04 11:29 pm

Innuvindyl · Post by **Innuvindyl** » Wed Jan 07, 2004 5:41 am

Hmmm I've started a character with... well... let us say a slight disgust for dwarves <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif ALT=":D"> I goes really well, though because of his, for the moment at least, very non-talkative nature he does not make many friends. 
 
And yes he did get half the town on his neck for spitting after some dwarf, but he still lives and people are actually starting to get interested in him... So it can be done, but it takes some time and especially some time were you have none to speak to, but after that I believe it is very rewarding... I have at least had some of my merrier moments spitting after them dwarf scums... <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/roll.gif ALT=":rollin">

Harlequin565 · Post by **Harlequin565** » Wed Jan 07, 2004 8:15 am

I was considering posting Jay's reasoning behind the way he speaks to and treats people - especially after the incident in the wayfarer where he was accused of being a "prejudiced b*****d" in response to mutterings about half-breeds. 
 
I think I'll leave it for "in-game" though... 
 
It is difficult to play what is essentially a racist, and I had my misgivings about doing one in the first place (the reason I play humans predominantly). Only my confidence in the RP'ing ability of the players on the server (esp. Lugdush & Gartok's players) led me to give it a go. 
 
It is also quite disconcerting to be hammered by negative reactions when such prejucide is voiced. Perhaps the Dale is different from the rest of Faerun? Jay certainly wasn't expecting the above such reaction from an elf when he referred to a half-orc, which leads me to wonder whether the reaction was purely an RP one... *shrugs* I guess we'll never know. Jay certainly didn't hang around to find out. 
 
I shall keep persevering with Jay... *grins* he has a lot of issues... but a quick smilie via tell after a hostile encounter would certainly give me the confidence to know I am heading in the right direction. 
 
-H

Rahjin · Post by **Rahjin** » Wed Jan 07, 2004 9:57 am

Well don't worry about the racism. Amar Everflame dislikes humans for the things he has secretly watched them do in Dragon Dale. And he never has liked half-orc. in fact there isn't a half orc on the server that can say they even know Amar. So amar spends alot of time in the glades (like a ranger should) *smiles*

Sypor · Post by **Sypor** » Wed Jan 07, 2004 1:49 pm

As I know I am a serious offender on this matter, I feel I must openly address the issue. I have but two reasons for my actions: player ignorance, and PnP history. Allow me to address both quickly. 
 
Player Ignorance.&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp In all my years of gaming I never truly played any length of serious time in the Forgotten Realms. The only exception to that is in computer games. To my recollection, these games have never quite full displayed the racism of the FR. Perhaps the companies are afraid of openly displaying such hostile racism as well? If that is the case, it should not have been written into the source material. 
 
PnP History. Also in all my years of gaming, as before NWN it was strictly PNP ¡V face to face ¡V all players were encouraged to cooperate and get along, regardless of differences IG and OOC. Such racial tensions were stated as existing (but also considered petty perhaps wrongly as the OOC world dictated), but those things were for NPCs and to be used against NPCs not for player to player interaction. Sure there was the occasional poke from the elf to the dwarf¡Kor from the human to the half-elf, etc. But there was never any on going complete distaste, distrust, or hatred. This was discouraged due to getting along. As NWN has changed the playing forum and now made it available to play out such tensions without ¡§taking it personal¡¨ per se, I guess that should change. I hadn¡¦t realized I was so off base. 
 
I do not think I am, or will be the only one in this type of scenario; but I do not mind being the only one who is vocal about it and willing to acknowledge it openly. Thanks for pointing this out AG. Everyone expect to see changes in my character¡¦s attitudes and personalities to reflect this new found knowledge. (Oh, and ¡V sorry Gartok. ƒ¼ Nothing personal.) 
 
Take one other small detail into account when regarding racial tensions. Thieves from large cities where they were part of a guild may have a lesser dislike for many of the other races. Personally, I would think them to be slightly more tolerant of the racial difference as they have been more or less ¡§forced¡¨ to work together and get along in the guild. Yes I know thieves are typically the ¡§worst of the worst¡¨ but¡K.Just a thought for consideration. 
 
As I have stated before, expect to see changes. And if ANYONE feels I am getting too far off base, please poke me with a TELL and let me know. These are very old habits I will have to break. As a matter of fact, I like ongoing tell critiques (and don¡¦t mind giving them either - just ask) it encourages the same level of play to return again and again. I have noticed this with Analia¡¦s interactions with certain other PCs. I would suggest more people give little bits of feedback during or after particularly good or bad PC interactions. 
 
 
 
Sypor 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
Analia

Adalia13 · Post by **Adalia13** » Wed Jan 07, 2004 4:17 pm

Well, I am certainly not as seasoned a role player as most on this seerver, in PnP as well as online games, but i must say that the encounter I have had including different races together in harmony. There were the occasional wise cracks of the elf to the dwarf and the elf to the huuman, but for most purposes they got along, and stood together to fight for a common cause, i.e. Saving the town from the goblins, giants, etc. As for treating Half-Orcs (Gartok) as a teddy bear, well, since his character personality is none other than that of a teddy bear, how would one handle that? Gee I guess I am just a tear jerking movie fool, if Legolas and Gimli can get along in Lord of The Rings, I guess I thought there was hope, and since although Jayde is an elf, being from Kara Tur, and having oriental customs and features, will she be shunned against by her own race? Where do we draw the line? This sure is going to get sticky. 
 
Adalia13 
****** 
Jayde

Cafall · Post by **Cafall** » Wed Jan 07, 2004 4:22 pm

The half-orc thing is a bit of a weird issue; I know that by the time I toughened up Corvus' policy on racism, Gartok and Lugdush were already well-known and respected, so I could hardly suddenly start to shun them. I believe this was the same for many other people as well, so these two half-orcs pretty much slipped in the gate as it closed, and you'll notice that very few half-orcs have been seen twice since, and none have risen anywhere near the status of Gartok and Lugdush. I've noticed that there are extremely few people who will readily trust them; Corvus, for one, isn't openly hostile, but extremely wary and mistrustful, and he needs a lot of proof that the half-orc in question means well before he'll drop half his guard around them. 
 
Also, keep in mind how much a person's Charisma score can affect how people react to him or her. I've seen a lot of females (elves included <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/indifferent.gif ALT=":|"> ) treating Gartok like a teddy bear (no offense, Arolar, just an example); and I know Gartok's Charisma is less than 10, so generally Gartok will be even uglier than most half-orcs, which kind of discourages that sort of behavior. I try to work Charisma into how much Corvus likes Gartok and Lugdush; Gartok he respects for his good intentions and work to defend the Dale, but he doesn't really want to sit too close; Lugdush is better, because he's not as disgusting, and Corvus has a bit in common with him. 
 
The Charisma works both ways, as well; Corvus is generally not an extremely pretty sight a lot of the time, just because of the scars. He was actually recently approached by an elven woman he knew only in passing, and she made a couple of blatantly sexual comments (with Tolwyn and Julisette standing right there <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/embarassed.gif ALT=":o"> ) before Corvus backed off enough to let the woman know she wasn't welcome. This elf couldn't have been looking at Corvus' face while she was doing this. Generally, I personally like to see more realistic reactions to Corvus' and others' immediately apparent, less appealing physical attributes; I was thrilled when Corvus first met Tolwyn and one of the first things she did was apologize for staring at his scars, simply because the player had taken them into account and adjusted her RP accordingly.

-- Cafall (Corvus Gwynstredd'ae and Harritan Middleson)Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub188.ezboard.com/bthevast.showUserPublicProfile?gid=cafall>Cafall</A> at: 1/7/04 12:29 pm

goatte · Post by **goatte** » Wed Jan 07, 2004 4:31 pm

Great points made here about racism. I have a couple of suggestions for displaying racism. You don't have to be overtly hostile and racist. 
 
Overt hostility will get a negative reaction. If you spit on Karn, you're gonna be spittin' teeth. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/sick.gif ALT=":x"> Racism, like being evil, makes more sense to hide. Speaking your racial language or another language that other's don't know is a good way to hide your racism. Use tells, along with open emotes describing your actions. 
 
*looks at half-orc with disdain and speaks to fellow elf in elvish* 
 
Followed by a tell saying how you hate orckin. That would work pretty well. Telling jokes about certain races is a good example of racism that doesn't get you a butt whipping. 
 
I play a Sun Elf that is very racist; however, his racism takes the form of of being patronizing to those not Sun Elves. He does hate Drow, but that's a given. He doesn't trust Half-orc's to overcome their orcish heritage, too. His tone may anger you, but he feels that you should know how great it is to be a Sun Elf, if you don't already. He just knows he's superior to 99% of the population of Faerun. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)"> This is one way to be openly racist, besides the whole 'I hate Orcs' outburst way. 
 
goatte (karn & faelar)

Adalia13 · Post by **Adalia13** » Wed Jan 07, 2004 5:11 pm

Ok, I have another tibit, I think it was Monday, Ralyn and Jayde were sitting on the bench by the well, when a dwarf came up and started speaking to Jayde, she not understanding dwarven was trying to be polite but continued her conversation with Ralyn, in elvish. Then another dwarf appeared, who spoke common, translating for Jayde, who also speaks common. Now this dwarf the translator told Jayde, that his friend was smitten with her. Which of course she scowled in response too, being betrothed to Ralyn. So this is really beyond my conception, We can't be friendly with other races, but a dwarf is going to like an elf???? a skinny elf. Well we rp'd it along where Jayde was getting annoyed, Ralyn furious, as the Dwarf who spoke common, kept telling of his friend and his intentions, but (ooc) we could see that the translation was being altered, Jayde's responses to the flirting dwarf was altered to they are o.k. with it she likes you and the male elf, is nothing to her, or something like that, then telling Ralyn, and Jayde that he is just getting drinks to be social with us. The dwarf did say to his friend I don't think she likes me, and the translator would reply, sure she does she told me. The flirting Dwarf then came back grabbed Jayde's hand and kissed it, aftering blowing her kisses, Jayde smacked the dwarf, stood up to leave, and Ralyn warned the other dwarf about his friend. Now I know I am babling , and if need be I belive I do have the log, if anyone is interested, especially AG, but this makes Rping quite complicated, shouldn't we be going with the caharcters personalites and the flow of the role play??? 
 
Well sorry for the rambling on. 
 
Adalia13 
****** 
Jayde

sebathius · Post by **sebathius** » Wed Jan 07, 2004 5:16 pm

Personally, I think its hilarious. 
 
are you asking though if cross racial love interest is possible here? Are you asking if theres something wrong with the character being smitten by an elf? 
 
Remember, though Gimli at first was scared to meet Galadrielle due to the stories, in the end he was willing to lay down his life at the mere mention of her name. He even begged for a lock of her hair to remember her by. 
 
Hector

thryllkill · Post by **thryllkill** » Wed Jan 07, 2004 6:02 pm

Being from Luiren, Perado has had minimal exposure to any race other than Strongheart Halflings. Since leaving she has been exposed to just about everything but. Elves took a while for her to get used to, since she had mythic opinions of these beings, (think Samwaise Gamgee) it took a while for her to accept that they were people. Dwarves, well, her first mentor was a dwarf (a particularly stupid and arrogent one, but sorcerers do not have to be smart). She is distrustful of anything that is bigger than she (and even gnomes are bigger than Pera) but does her best to display and friendly face to everyone. Except other halflings. 
 
That may sound odd at first, but being from Luiren she is used to seeing halflings as normal people, only since leaving Luiren has she been exposed to the concept that most halflings are rogues and thieves. She has, and is not afraid to display it, an intense grudge against the Lightfoots for their (as far as she sees it) having dragged the noble hin name through the mud. The Merrows, Rego, and Druppi have done nothing but intensify her distrust of her own people, a fact which saddens her to no end. 
 
Another thing is, while she may not be overtly racist, she is very classist. Wizards = bad juju. The way they use their magic, through study and knowledge, seems almost like an un-natural abuse of Mystra's gift to her. (Probably a very off base opinion, but she is very ignorant of her own powers and abilities, let alone other peoples). Rogues are distrusted for the most part (except Ruben, cause he took her on her first raid of a goblin cave). 
 
She definatly favors sorcerers. If she has any questions about magic she runs to Averas. If she hears of a bandit or a lizardfolk sorceress being killed, the fact saddens her. Not that she wants the bandits or the lizardfolk to thrive or kill people, but because she feels a small kinship with these types. 
 
She is cautious around priests. She doesn't have anything against them, but divine magic is different than arcane magic. You may catch her shying away when someone is getting healed.

randy jordan · Post by **randy jordan** » Wed Jan 07, 2004 6:09 pm

As representing the "other" half-orc whose name keeps popping up here. I don't know that I will ever hear anyone refer to Lugdush as a teddy bear. He is a good person. He has gone to great lengths, due to his upbringing, to behave (he has a 10 CHR) and act in a respectable manner. 
 
He was raised by a dwarf, in a dwarven community, so he accepts dwarves as equals, but is not surprised when they react negatively to him (most of the dwarven community he was raised in shunned him, only tolerating him due to the respect they had for his mentor). Regardless of how intolerant of Lugdush, Thurgrin acts, Lug still sees him as a member of his community, and shows him the utmost respect, and admiration. Karn is his first, and closest friend. That said, Lugdush came to the dale, having one experience with elves, a half remembered incident, in which all he can remember clearly were the elven eyes watching him (it wasn't until later that he found out it was a drow), so for a while, he really had misgivings about dealing with any elves. But has learned to trust some of them with his life (mostly due to Karn's reassurance). 
 
Orick, his dwarven mentor, had few prejudices (apparent in his willingness to take in a small half-orc child). A few things filtered into the beliefs that he passed on to Lugdush. He generally mistrusts hin, since Orick thought they were mostly rogues. Knows little about gnomes (and after meeting Ashby, doesn't really want to know more). Thinks elves are odd (even though some of his closest friends are elves). Thinks that most humans are power-hungry. And half-orcs? Only if they are able to turn their back on their orc-kin's lust for violence, will they meet anything other than the hate that he has for orcs. 
 
These feelings don't come out as prejudices or hatred, as much as preconceived notions about how a person is going to be. Lugdush is a good person, a kind person, and a helpful soul, who will offer to heal a stranger, simply because he is bleeding. That is his nature. The only hate he truly harbors, is for the drow that tortured him as a child, and their allies (especially orcs). He struggles constantly to deny the "blood song" that urges him to kill for pure pleasure. 
 
As far as the way people treat him. I would say most who newly meet him react negatively... for about the first fifteen minutes. I don't attribute this turn-around in feelings to his winning personality, as much as to a general desire to get the bigotry over and get on with making allies on the server. Once again, I mention Thurgrin, because he was the only one I have come across, who consistently refused to let me heal him, even after he knew me well enough not to split me in two. 
 
Lugdush may not be a big teddy bear, but he is a nice guy. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif ALT=":D"> If your character doesn't like him, because he's a half-orc, no problem, but don't be surprised if Lugdush continues to treat you nicely... 'cause that's who he is. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/tongue.gif ALT=":b"> 
 
me

The Vast

Racial/social/cultural attitudes in the Forgotten Realms.

Racial/social/cultural attitudes in the Forgotten Realms.

Re: In character racial attitudes - FR racism.

Re: In character racial attitudes - FR racism.

Re: In character racial attitudes - FR racism.

Re: In character racial attitudes - FR racism.

Re: In character racial attitudes - FR racism.

Re: In character racial attitudes - FR racism.

Re: In character racial attitudes - FR racism.

In Character Racial Attitudes - FR racism

Re: In character racial attitudes - FR racism.

Re: In character racial attitudes - FR racism.

In Character Racism

Re: In Character Racism

Re: In Character Racism

Re: In character racial attitudes - FR racism.