A DM (or at least used to be) speaks his mind

pcpaf · Post by **pcpaf** » Fri Oct 24, 2003 1:36 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>and I am very pleased with the overall quality of the players we do have. The day will never come that I would trade such quality for a continuously full server. To everyone who is out there contributing to the community, keep up the good work. <hr></blockquote> 
 
You are welcome <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/roll.gif ALT=":rollin">

Cafall · Post by **Cafall** » Fri Oct 24, 2003 4:04 pm

I came to the Vast as a complete newbie to RP during that period when most, if not all, of the DMs were on vacation and the place was all but empty. I found the server on a day when Nym, Artemis, etc. were all on (from what I've heard, they apparently decided to visit for a few hours) and sat back and watched them to get a feel for the server and what RPing actually was. By the end of my first day in which two characters died and Corvus' first incarnation was screwed up due to a game glitch, I had decided that it was a drag that this Vast thing was a static server, but what material was there, was fun and challenging, the players I had met were excellent; and the entire server was well-made, virtually oozing both an environment that was friendly and non-intimidating to complete newbies, and a sense of a huge, realistic world outside the gates. The Vast was a nice distraction, and when Algernon came on and breathed life back into the place (especially when he involved Corvus in the drow plotline, an event which burst Corvus' personality into bloom and gave me an opportunity to hone my RP skills quite a bit) I fell hard for the server. 
 
This is hardly the thread to hand out thank-you notes to all of the players and DMs who have been patient with me and, wittingly or not, taught me how to RP; but I would like to say that at large, The Vast is an apple which receives most of its flavor from the excellent DMs and the great players, and it is an apple I have not yet tired of biting into from various angles. I would never have thought that the DMs get so much grief for doing their job as well as they do, but I guess I should have known better. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/embarassed.gif ALT=":o"> 
 
I didn't get much of a chance to interact with Apollo (at least as far as I know... you never know just which DM is laughing as Eldrieth Jaelre whacks Corvus into oblivion!) but from what I have heard and what little I actually have seen him do, he is excellent at what he does and very good-natured about it. Good luck, Apollo, and I hope you decide to come back eventually for the parts of the apple that aren't rotten.

-- Cafall (Corvus Gwynstredd'ae)

Rahjin · Post by **Rahjin** » Fri Oct 24, 2003 6:32 pm

Hey Apollo, 
This is Trent Waynn (my most well known character) i have been around for a while with the Vast *i hope i don't repeat anything that was already said, but some of those replies were too long for my short attention span* I have enjoyed every minute of it. Nothing that has been done or changed do i disagree with. I have spent sometime as a DM of late and i feel your pain. I am new to the RP world but i have learned alot for you, the other DMs and the Vast Regulars. I hope that there will be a time when all of us and just sit down and have the fun that we used to when i first started playing here *not that i don't now* Kudos to you all and my Torm smile upon you and your kin (had to toss that in) 
 
Rahjin 
AKA Trent Waynn

Tsarjin · Post by **Tsarjin** » Sun Oct 26, 2003 7:57 pm

Sad to hear it Apollo. And coming from the "troublemake who doesnt know when to leave" 's perspective, i can relate from the side that you and ghost are "mad" at. No im not putting words in your mouths, just using a base word for it. now for the real meat... 
 
just because someone complains, or is constantly stating something seems out of place or wrong, does not mean disrespect, myself, i have seen MANY flaws, but guess what? if i didnt enjoy the server? nor if i didnt care, then why would i say anything? perhaps the vast isnt my place, i know for a fact, after an arguemtn with ghost, i left for a while, i can say i dont feel right anywhere else, The vast was the first, and thus far, the last server that i commonly play on. I like the roleplay, and for the most part, most of the rules, some of them i think make the server too much of a "the bright side of fantasy" but i suppose thats part of it 
 
 
You (taraxa and ghost, and apollo/miri as well) deserve massive credit for your work on this server, physically, but i belive you all deserve much more on a playable basis, and roleplay basis. Personally, i have played in events of all of yours, and each of you have your own flavor. i admit, thrive in apollos best but you all are equals. To know one of you to leave, i beleive will be a grave hurt to the vast. 
 
Right now i would like to ask you DM's though, if a player bends the rules, or complains, sometimes its for a good reason. and yes this is your home turf, and this is your call. but tell me this, would it be any ful in dragon dale turned into a ghosttown? I think, for the most part you respect your players, but i also think you need to trust/listen to them a little more. And even after my absence from, first the vast, and recently NWN (those of you that know me, know that i played A LOT), i still miss the all nighters of Roleplaying. My first night here i spent with Adun, Se'len, Vlad and Glaisne, and those characters are still around. I know each of them, for the most part, inside out, and i miss the fun. The vast ahs something that no other server has, and that has a lot to do with the players, not only the DM's. All im trying to say is, its a joint effort to keep the world good, though when its bad, the DM's get the blame. 
 
I guess this was just a letout of my thoughts on the recent happenings, my recent is far from accurate with yours. *shrugs* i suppose thats it, i apologize for the long, and to some, pointless post. Apollo, i hope to see you soon, and Algernon, i hope this either gives you ideas, or at least shows you my reasonings for my actions. 
 
-mike 
(Rolly Briams, Kylie Ste'feyn, Jena Ar'tyn, Tsarjin Rezitre )

Post by **Algernon's Ghost** » Mon Oct 27, 2003 4:47 pm

Since you persist in airing your dirty laundry here, then, for the sake of enlightenment, I shall also explain some things about your behaviour to the community. 
 
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>just because someone complains, or is constantly stating something seems out of place or wrong, does not mean disrespect, myself, i have seen MANY flaws, but guess what?<hr></blockquote> 
You have seen many things you just do not like. The rules and the world will not change just to satisfy your wants. We have good reason for making things the way they are. It is also the constant complaining in the DM channel that rapidly becomes annoying. The DM channel is filled enough with valid questions and requests without being bombarded by whining and arguing. 
 
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>I think, for the most part you respect your players, but i also think you need to trust/listen to them a little more.<hr></blockquote> 
We do listen to the players all the time, but we are still not going to change certain basic core rules just because you want to play a certain way. We will not be allowing PvP/PK on the server without DM permission, period. PvP/PK rapidly degenerates into the realm of OOC desires, this is why a DM is required to approve and monitor any such situation. 
 
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Right now i would like to ask you DM's though, if a player bends the rules, or complains, sometimes its for a good reason.<hr></blockquote> 
You outright shattered the rules; they were unrecognizeable after you were finished with them. I was more than patient with you for a very long time. You PKed five (yes folks, five!) other player characters, including one played by Apollo (that's right folks, the DM!) for various petty reasons, including that they were annoying to you. Do you think any civilized town would put up with that, and not place a reward on your head? That is not RP, it is only wanton PvP. By all rights you should have been banned the first time, but I chose to give you a chance, I'd say I was more than fair. 
 
There is a limit to any person's patience when dealing with a continuous torrent of whining when one has treated that person more than fairly.

They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security. 
-Benjamin Franklin

Tsarjin · Post by **Tsarjin** » Mon Oct 27, 2003 7:18 pm

I said those in a context, not blaming you. and hey jackass, it was 2 that i outright killed, one attacked me and i retaliated, another wasa griefer, and the last one i dont remember. I specifically complimented your server, and no it was just cause i didnt like things, i told you my reasonings on why i did what i did, and in "Real" fantasy, guess what? murder is no new thing. Someone pisses you off IC, guess what? If your malicious you would kill them for it. Nice wording on the Apollo one as well. I think its kinda funny you need to direct that at me so harshly. Ask apollo, the character was given ample warning, i took one shot, and attempted to move to break the attack. It didnt work. YOu can ask him that yourself. Kaleys character was not one to piss off, and gave ample warning to anyone. In a real world, an arrow in your face would normally shut you up, not make you spout off more. And ghost, i paid you your respect. The least you could do was take it what it was meant for. I was showing you my veiws, not insulting you. If you took it like that, then @#%$ grow up already.

Tsarjin · Post by **Tsarjin** » Mon Oct 27, 2003 7:20 pm

That was the last straw for me anyways. If what i say is just dirty laundry to you, then fine. Im gone. I attempted many times to help you on the server. You didnt accept it fine. To all those that i was able to enjoy playing with it was fun. But now, its time to be gone. GO dance and have your party Ghost.

Apollos Will · Post by **Apollos Will** » Mon Oct 27, 2003 7:32 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Nice wording on the Apollo one as well. I think its kinda funny you need to direct that at me so harshly. Ask apollo, the character was given ample warning, i took one shot, and attempted to move to break the attack. It didnt work. YOu can ask him that yourself.<hr></blockquote> 
 
Oh, that is true. You made a warning shot..LOL....at first level which I was, a warning shot is way dangerous, and yes, I know you tried to stop your second attack, but that was not the issue (and it is hard to make your character stop attacking, when you first have issued an attack). You attacked me, not in self defense, but for stating a point that you were way toughere then me (which for sure your character was), and that could have been done, by other means. Like use of the emote wand, and I promise you, I would have roleplayed that fine. 
 
I was playing an evil character with a somehow low charisma and a provoking mouth, and I know they never live long. But that still don't make it acceptable to attack within the serverrules. For all out there, use your emote wand to subdue (roleplay) those things. If the one, you really want to spank, don't roleplay that, ignore him (or at best if a DM is on contact them, and I'm sure they will allow a pvp). 
 
Just my two cents to explain too what happend in my case. A good advice, never attack another player. It could be a DM in disguise, and you know, if they end in fugue, they have nothing better to do, then get back in as a DM and get revenge *evil grin*

Post by **Taraxa Lionstooth** » Mon Oct 27, 2003 8:02 pm

Enough is enough. 
 
There was no reason to resort to name calling. 
 
Consider this the third and final strike.

bombastinator · Post by **bombastinator** » Mon Oct 27, 2003 8:26 pm

in support of algernon's comment (10/27/03 12:47 pm) above i would like to say that listening to the players means listening to all of them as well. I, for instance, despise pk, and would not even play here if it was not controlled. I also dislike pickpocketing, but I understand that there are those that like it and am willing to deal with it. There are many (likely hundreds, i am unsure of the number) who's opinions the man must balance, and I strongly suspect that just as in government the best way to do this is to consistantly do what you think is right and let people vote with their feet. I have elected to interject ideas, which the administration may or may not feel have merit. But i fully expect them to be seen as no more than that and that they may or may not have merit. To do so at this time for instance, I have played a fair bit on a server called la la land. It had certain rules, chiefly involving the use of certain magic items as I remember, which some players found distasteful. What they did was set up a mirror game called ash's server. Same game, slightly different rules. It was an admirable step as it simultaneously alleviated stress on the original server, removed a certain amount of complaining, and allowed an empirical test for issues. In a certain ironic turn however one thing that was discovered was that the rules changes did in fact mess with the game and some of them were dropped all together. The rest were kept in and consequently the second server is slightly "higher power" and more dificult for new charecters. It was a value change from the origional but different people have different values so everything comes out ok. I don't know if the administration is up for handing out what is likely several thousand man hours of work or more over to someone. But if so, I suggest those people with issues put their money where their mouth is as it were. (and again, its just an idea, ignore it at your leasure)

ish07 · Post by **ish07** » Tue Oct 28, 2003 6:30 am

For future reference: Flaming=lame, so don't do it. 
 
Now, for the part that matters, keep in mind this is just my 2 cents: 
 
I side with AG on this one. The DM's have a lot to worry about without constant player complaints being thrown on the stack. Keep in mind their is a blatant, bold, nonfine line between a suggestion and a complaint. A complaint is something like "This is too hard. You should make it easier." 
A suggestion sounds something like "Hey, I was playing through this area, and wouldn't it be neat if you could somehow implement *______*?" Furthermore, there is a suggestions forum for (drum roll) suggestions. There's no sense in tying up a DM's attention IG with a suggestion: they have more important things to do i.e. observing and maintaining the game and making sure it's running consistent with the guidelines of the world. This brings me to my next point: The Vast was created with the creators' vision in mind. That means, simply, that this world is as it is, and changes when the DM's think it should. How often does one ask their god (depending on religion or lack thereof) for a global scale change to their existence? This should be applied to the game: would your character really have the audacity to tell a being of omnipotence, "Um, I don't like this part here, so could you change that? Yeah, that'd be great." 
It should also be noted that there are MANY other RP servers out there, so if one is unhappy with the Vast, then one should leave. Basically, let those who love the Vast, have the Vast, and those who don't can have something else. 
*not saying suggestions are bad, far from it, just saying there's a time, a reason, and a place for them* 
 
ish07 
 
Valens 
(formerly Dalon Lightblade/Arogard)

bmm0321 · Post by **bmm0321** » Tue Oct 28, 2003 12:29 pm

*gasps in surprise* There's a Suggestion forum? 
 
bmm 
<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/pimp.gif ALT=":hat">

BelFarfalla · Post by **BelFarfalla** » Tue Oct 28, 2003 12:54 pm

I understand where Ghost, Taraxa and Apollo are coming from. They, especially Ghost and Taraxa, have put an enormous amount of effort and resources into the Vast. They are to be applauded for this … whether if a person agrees with their vision or not. Having half a clue what it takes to put together and DM a server I’m amazed they do it. Kudos are in order for the great job they have done on the Vast. 
 
From my experience graciously stated suggestions are received in the same light they are given in. that does not mean they are implemented… they cannot be because of conflicts with visions and time/effort limitations. 
 
I can only think of one occasion when I might have spoken to Apollo. If it was he, then he was very reasonable and helpful. I have interacted mostly with Ghost. He’s been helpful… at times he’s chastised me and I suppose I deserved it. But mostly he’s been more than fair, helpful and friendly. 
 
Suggestions and input are good. Other servers can be looked at as examples of what is right, wrong or just different. That is good… borrowing an idea is a great form of flattery to the originator. 
 
The Vast is the only PW/RP server I’ve really played on. I have signed on to several others and never gone back, they just did not feel right. I did spend some time on a social server but that’s a different thing and not to my liking. It’s a lot different from and a lot similar to PnP games. I have learned at lot about rp on the Vast, from the DM’s, other players and of course from Card/Gall/bmm0321. 
 
Building, maintaining and serving the Vast is a huge undertaking. I can only imagine how it consumes the lives of Ghost, Taraxa and Apollo. The analogy that we are in their house and at their table in a very good one. I’ll take it step further. If they invited us to dinner, then we suggested that the meal was all wrong and even insulted/cursed at them for it they would have every right to toss us out on our ear. I’d certainly never invite a guest back after that. 
 
If anyone thinks that what is being done here is wrong, or that their every suggestion needs to be implemented then either they need to start paying a huge salary to Ghost & Taraxa or they need to go out and build their own server and show the world that they can do it better. Of course what they will find is that dealing with the hundreds, even thousands, on the Internet will have some very un-fun sides to it. There will be some people out there who think their concept of wonderful is just down right wrong. 
 
 
------------- 
Valens brings up a very good point. Use the suggestion part of this forum for suggestions… not the DM channel. Email works too. DM’s could refer folks to it so lighten their on-server load. This forum is relatively new, so in the past the DM channel and email were the only routes to have contact with the DMs. 
 
I also want to comment about PK. The Vast is not an easy world to survive in. It takes scores of hours to develop and gain levels. For a player to steal that effort from another player is just plain wrong. Sure murder happens.. in rl and in rp. But it should not be done lightly and not with out DM approval… unless it is in self defense or defense of another character. 
 
(Mendra)

ish07 · Post by **ish07** » Tue Oct 28, 2003 5:02 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>The analogy that we are in their house and at their table in a very good one. I’ll take it step further. If they invited us to dinner, then we suggested that the meal was all wrong and even insulted/cursed at them for it they would have every right to toss us out on our ear. I’d certainly never invite a guest back after that.<hr></blockquote> 
 
The above was stated by BelFarfalla. Beautiful way of saying what I attempted to equate. Take this one to heart.

sebathius · Post by **sebathius** » Wed Oct 29, 2003 7:45 am

Miranda and Hector here, hanging out: 
 
H: Hey guys, lets relax a bit. We are losing sight of what this post was about. Mike, I have enjoyed our time together, so lets talk as equals. Alg and you dont agree with each others methods on the server. Unfortunately, though you may not agree with his rules, they are his rules. You are in his house. In the past, we didnt have this forum to discuss problems, so I guess you took it out with him on the DM channel. Maybe it would have been better if you did that by addressing an email to him instead. 
 
M: I agree. by fighting with him online, you only took him away from the players that probably would be needing his help. look, we didnt see eye to eye with alot of Ghosts rules either, and I left because I didnt find some things right by my opinion, but that didnt mean I have to treat Ghost differently. I still respected him though I didnt feel comfortable with his ruling. 
 
H: One thing that you two seem to be stumbling on is the fact that we as players have a personal attachment to the character we create and we tend to forget that the creation we made is really under the permission of the server's owners while its sitting online there. Sure, you can save your character onto your computer off the server if you get so attached, but on the server its theirs. As Vald, I imagine what I would like him to be like, and tried to come up with some storyline based on that image, but the truth is that Alg has final say on that and if he were to decide that he doesnt want it to be so, such as my drow encounter in the north storyline I made, then ITS NOT SO. I know it can be painful when a DM takes a characteristic personality away from you, such as Kaleys aggressive attitude, but you still have to remember where you stand on the server. Your not less of a person, just remember your playing on his court. How he decides to act, or how 'draconian' his rules may be, should give you the ability to decide whether you want to stay. 
 
M: Yarkoon pointed out something back to the opinion issue, that some of us have a vision we would like to see the Vast move into and sometimes make suggestions, but as Lincoln said, "you cant please all the people all of the time." I have seen opinions on this server conflict against each other on whats right with PKing, PvP, XP allowances, what the creatures drop. It would impossible to try to please everyone, and as such we can only hope that Taraxa, Apollo, and Ghost manage to make the best decision. Just because it doesnt fall with my opinion doesnt mean they dont respect our opinion. 
 
H: I have to admit that maybe Im used to DMing with a softer hand than Algernon tends to apply with the approach in social interactions with players. It doesnt make him less of a person, and I respect what he has strived hard to do. I think him and I have an understanding on where we fall, though we have butted heads. Obviously hes mature enough to handle my constant badgering him for minor dumb stuff or else I would have been banned quite a while ago. I can see where the two of you would have trouble dealing with each other, though. You both have very strong personalities and want or expect certain things from the other and you both dont seem to want to budge. Unfortunately, Mikey, you have no footing in this place. You may be used to DMing and having no power to enact your opinion or feeling in one place may be frustrating like it was originally for me. You have to learn to adjust. 
 
M: I hope you two manage to get over this major setback. I really enjoyed working on the romance between TemuJen and Gwen, so I know Mikey had the potential for RP. I do believe that the Vast could use his potential, but I do also know that if a player is unscrupulous with the rules, the hand has to know when to come down. 
 
H: I agree. Algs post may have been a bit angry towards you but you could have responded by just sending an email to him directly instead of attacking him outright here. It was actually wrong and it made you drop a couple pegs. Recently I had a difference of opinion with Ghost but instead of making it an issue on the site for everyone to see, I spoke to him privately. We resolved it, and no harm came from it. 
 
We dont mean to make this a more flammable situation. We both hope that you guys resolve your differences and that everyone else doesnt lose the sight on the fact we are losing a great DM from this server. 
 
Sorry for the long post, 
 
Hector and Miranda.

The Vast

A DM (or at least used to be) speaks his mind

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Re: A DM (or at least used to be) speaks his mind

Re: A DM (or at least used to be) speaks his mind

Re: A DM (or at least used to be) speaks his mind

Re: A DM (or at least used to be) speaks his mind

Re: A DM (or at least used to be) speaks his mind

Re: A DM (or at least used to be) speaks his mind

Re: A DM (or at least used to be) speaks his mind

Re: A DM (or at least used to be) speaks his mind

Re: A DM (or at least used to be) speaks his mind

Re: A DM (or at least used to be) speaks his mind

Re: A DM (or at least used to be) speaks his mind

Re: A DM (or at least used to be) speaks his mind

WOAH WOAH WOAH!