The Vast

Just when I thought I had nothing more to say on the subject.... I have read the following posts and now think I can sum it up. In Frankenstein, the monster was given flowers by the small girl, and he smiled. He was ugly scarey and illiterate, yet he was able to feel emotion to the young girl as well as the young girl to him. Then we can go to Beauty and the Beast, there was true love, o.k. he turned back into a prince, but hey she loved him as a beast first :0) so what this all boils down to, is if Jayde thinks the big lug Gartok is a teddy bear,I guess it is ok. So...Gartok, expect some flowers :0)<br>
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Adalia13<br>
******<br>
Jayde

<p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub188.ezboard.com/bthevast.showUserPublicProfile?gid=adalia13@thevast>Adalia13</A> at: 1/7/04 7:08 pm<br></i>

There are some good posts here, but I wanted to add a few things from my general observations:<br>
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1) Dwarves and Elves have no real racial tension in D&D or FR, completely different from the LOTR conception. Elves don't particularly care for the way Dwarves conduct their lives (underground, greedy, etc.) but have no racial tensions as that displayed by Legolas and Gimli in LOTR. An Elf would treat a Dwarf the same as a Human, if not better. And it works the other way, a Dwarf would find an Elf to be aloof and impractical to the point of absurdity, but doesn't by any means hate them. Humans and Dwarves generally get along, especially from an economic standpoint, while Elves generally dislike Humans for their expansionist policies in the past and their penchant for defiling nature. Halflings and Gnomes fall outside this sphere somewhat, as Halflings are extremely adaptable people who can fit in pretty much everywhere, and Gnomes have historically been detached from the other races and so pretty much view them all as the same, one way or another. But Orc-kind sadly are Generally hated by most races simply because they carry the blood of Orcs, which are completely and irredeemably evil and disgusting creatures with no exceptions. Every single Orc deity is insanely evil.<br>
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2) A few people mentioned the playing of Charisma scores. This is very important. DM's really look for this. Anything under a 10 makes you pretty much both anti-social and physically ugly. Low hygiene also comes into this. Why do you think Paladins have such high Charisma?<br>
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3) I think the word racism itself is a little crude for this topic in some ways. This isn't just ignorant, mindless racism we're talking about, but especially among Elves and Orc-kind, it's more of a historical and cultural hate. The Orcs were pretty much created for the singular purpose of killing Elves, and they've done so for thousands of years. Cormanthor and other Elven areas have suffered years and years of brutal Orc raiding, often very serious threats too. Moreover, Orcs as a race represent everything loathsome and different from an Elfs culture. They are very current enemies. So while an Elf would indeed be physically absolutely repulsed by a Half-Orcs appearence (especially one with low CHA) they would be even more hateful and repulsed from a historical/cultural level. And throw in the fact that the other side of a Half-Orc is Human, something that Elves generally mistrust also.<br>
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In the end, I can totally see and agree with AG's concern about some of the things going on with regards to this issue.<br>
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-Psi

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On the charisma stuff....<br>
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How do I know that a character has a low charisma score ?? If he does not tell me, or I do not ask... then there is no way I can know, and honestly I don't ask for the CHA for every player I encounter... though maybe I should...<br>


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Yeah, it's unfortunate in my opinion that players can't see each others scores, particularly charisma. And I don't hold any player accountable for not playing up to another players charisma. Race is another matter though.<br>
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But when I said that, I meant that every player should make an effort to play their charisma, because DM's can see it, and it'll make a big difference in their appreciation of a particular players RP'ing. It's obviously not good to see someone who has very low charisma always being the leader, or the center of attention, or friendly, or polite.... etc. The list goes on.<br>
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It's one of the first things I check on every player I encounter. That and alignment, race, etc. It's like a first impression, a template a DM uses to get to know the character. <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :) --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> Not something that's rigid, mind you, just a way to get to know them. I've seen some people who play their stats extrordinarily well, and have complex personalities too, and I've seen some who don't do it so well, a hypothetical example being the Fighter or Warrior class who has -8 wisdom, intelligence and charisma and high con, dex and str. And yet they are always leading the group and chatting up all the ladies <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START ;) --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <br>
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-Psi

<p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub188.ezboard.com/bthevast.showUserPublicProfile?gid=psilax@thevast>Psilax</A> at: 1/7/04 11:42 pm<br></i>

Another thought...<br>
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Player characters are supposed to be exceptional. They are in stats and abilities and become so in action because of that. <br>
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I guess they can't hold a higher standard of philosphy or thought, the way this thread sounds. <br>
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I realize I can leave if I don't like it. I choose to stay.<br>
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Sypor<br>
~~~~~~~~~~~<br>
Analia<br>
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Side note: I was told by someone that my new character Godiena was the happiest cleric of Ilmater they had ever meet. The went on to say that they are usually dour people. I find nothing in any source material that says what the PERSONALITIES of the clerics should be. Any insight? I have been using the 2nd edition Forgotten Realms Adventures (TSR2106) for reference.

<p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub188.ezboard.com/bthevast.showUserPublicProfile?gid=sypor>Sypor</A> at: 1/8/04 3:05 am<br></i>

How do I know that a character has a low charisma score ??

Ideally you would know because their play would show you, but this is more often not the case. Should the DMs begin tellling the players when they are dealing with low charisma characters?<

But when I said that, I meant that every player should make an effort to play their charisma, because DM's can see it, and it'll make a big difference in their appreciation of a particular players RP'ing. It's obviously not good to see someone who has very low charisma always being the leader, or the center of attention, or friendly, or polite.... etc. The list goes on.

It's one of the first things I check on every player I encounter.

Ahh charisma, the unnecessary ability that most classes can nerf for the good of their other abilities...

If you are going to have a low charisma, you should be prepared to play it. And being prepared to truly play it means your company will not be enjoyed by the majority of folks, so think twice before you sacrifice those two points in charisma to raise your strength. If you cannot play it, or don't want to play it, then give your character a normal charisma.

The first thing I look at on every new character's sheet is ability scores, and the first score I check is always charisma. The other players may not know if you are portraying your charisma well, but the DMs do.

To Sypor on the topic of Ilmater: The description I have comes from the Forgotten Realms 3rd Ed Source Book:<br>
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" Ilmater's clerics are the most sensitive and caring beings in the world. While some grow cynical at all the suffering they see, they are still compelled to help those in need whenever they encounter them. His clerics share whatever they have with the needy and act on behalf of those that cannot act for or defend themselves. " page 243.<br>
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I take from it that Ilmater's priests are burdened by all the suffering of the world, so they tend to be really passionate against all the harm that comes to people. They are kind, but they are not going to walk around laughing and have a good ol time either because they are sensitve to all the suffering that is going on. Wether it be war, plague, starvation, great evil etc... . Others are suffering too much for a priest of Ilmater to relax and have fun because they are in a constant worry of those that are suffering. Also written on the same page is the priests of Ilmater can ask for a Plea of Rest wich allows them a tenday respite from Ilmaters duties to allow the priest to recover emotionally from the burden that he/she puts on in helping those that suffer. <br>
I don't know what was said about you being the happiest cleric, I am just saying what I am reading in the manual. <br>
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In my opinion, priests of any religion are going to be passionate about that ethos and their personality will reflect it. <br>
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As a side note about roleplaying and racism: <br>
I think others tend to forget the tension between priests of different gods. A priest of Helm and a priest of Torm, dont really care for each other that much. Even if both were lawful good, they could definatly get in a brawl and that would be in character. From stories I have read, and pnp that I have played in, Churchs do try to convert each other, preach that they are right and everyone else is wrong, and may have a crusade against an oppossing church. That would be a little extreme here in the Vast, but priests of different religion would not always be buddy buddy in my opinion. They would be tolerated. This is a predjudice (like racism) that should be roleplayed out as well when being a priest. <br>
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Protheus, Researcher from the Northern Coldlands.<br>
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As a side note about roleplaying and racism:
I think others tend to forget the tension between priests of different gods. A priest of Helm and a priest of Torm, dont really care for each other that much. Even if both were lawful good, they could definatly get in a brawl and that would be in character. From stories I have read, and pnp that I have played in, Churchs do try to convert each other, preach that they are right and everyone else is wrong, and may have a crusade against an oppossing church. That would be a little extreme here in the Vast, but priests of different religion would not always be buddy buddy in my opinion. They would be tolerated. This is a predjudice (like racism) that should be roleplayed out as well when being a priest.

Another excellent example.

are you asking though if cross racial love interest is possible here? Are you asking if theres something wrong with the character being smitten by an elf?

As a note, out of all the main, playable races, humanity is technically the only central race that can physically crossebreed with other races. Humans may mate with either elves, or orcs. Elves are physically incapable of producing offspring with those carrying orcish blood. There are also no half-dwarves, half-halflings, or half-gnomes.

We are not speaking of the various variances on the human race we see in real life. In this respect, contrasting these various races would be akin to comparing cats to dogs to elephants to crocodiles to eagles.

Remember, though Gimli at first was scared to meet Galadrielle due to the stories, in the end he was willing to lay down his life at the mere mention of her name. He even begged for a lock of her hair to remember her by.

I think this was more a fantastic awe and respect than a romantic interest the dwarf had with the elf. Perhaps even a touch of a mystical glamour.

Being one of the charisma-challenged, Karn went the route of the physically disgusting. He doesn't bathe, and he farts, belches, picks his nose, etc. If you follow Karn it would be because you see the opportunity from doing so and not because he's such a great personality. I've also worked on making him more of a curmudgeon, too. Also, if you catch Karn not being disgusting enough, send me a tell and I'll have him do something really outrageous. <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START ;) --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <br>
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I have a question about the other side of charisma. How do we roleplay in response to a higher charisma. I've seen paladin's treated with contempt in a lot of cases. I can see that being valid for a lot of reasons: you're evil, you learned to distrust the class, etc. But an innate part of paladinhood is likability, IMHO. Read Elizabeth Moon's 'Sheepfarmer's Daughter' for a good description of paladins. A paladin needs that likability to marshall folks to fight evil. Karn shows respect to Sir Caano and Trent and the other well-played paladins he's seen. I don't see that same level of respect from a lot of other players, though. Just curious about this.<br>
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goatte

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well as far as charisma is concerned, trent has a high score, but the player behind him doesn't LOL. i am not all that good with leadership when it comes to civilians (i am an E-5 in the navy) so i really can't translate it IC very well, that is why trent concedes leadership to others like Karn and THurgrin alot...that and the fact that trent is very humble at times. i look at it this way, if you can pull it off, then do it. If the Dms want to change that, you will see alot of well-known characters becoming outcasts. Playing someone ugly that has no manners and cannot lead a party to save his life to me isn't that easy.

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LOL, when's the last time someone saw Rish? He's a great example of low charisma. <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :rollin --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/roll.gif ALT=":rollin"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END-->

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<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>How do I know that a character has a low charisma score ?? If he does not tell me, or I do not ask... then there is no way I can know, and honestly I don't ask for the CHA for every player I encounter... though maybe I should...<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>
The way I tell is by watching what sorts of responses each player gives the NPC shopkeeper. If their Charisma is below 10, they're usually rude and/or sarcastic; if it equals or exceeds 10, they're more polite. Other than that, you have to ask.<br>
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<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Player characters are supposed to be exceptional. They are in stats and abilities and become so in action because of that.<br>
I guess they can't hold a higher standard of philosphy or thought, the way this thread sounds.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>
I would say that it depends entirely on the character, but that merely being an "exceptional" person doesn't let you wriggle out of biases that would have been pounded into your character since birth. I don't think that each person of every race is necessarily subject to the typical prejudices of their kind — it depends a lot on what he or she was taught, and what they learned, and if people think the race guidelines are an absolute requirement, I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree.<br>
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There are definitely some exceptions; elves hate drow with a passion, the hatred is instinctive and reflexive, not culturally taught. If there's a single elf that can escape it fully, I'd be surprised, though Corvus for one does his best to supress it. I'm sure there are other such things, as well. Even so, I don't like the notion that every character has to be absolutely stereotypical in their beliefs and lifestyle, as long as there's a solid reason for the break from the norm.<br>
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<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Side note: I was told by someone that my new character Godiena was the happiest cleric of Ilmater they had ever meet. The went on to say that they are usually dour people. I find nothing in any source material that says what the PERSONALITIES of the clerics should be. Any insight? I have been using the 2nd edition Forgotten Realms Adventures (TSR2106) for reference.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>
Religion doesn't dictate personality, in my opinion, and sourcebooks definitely shouldn't. But religion is a reflection of a person's personality. I wouldn't worry about it too much.

<p>-- Cafall (Corvus Gwynstredd'ae and Harritan Middleson)</p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub188.ezboard.com/bthevast.showUserPublicProfile?gid=cafall>Cafall</A> at: 1/8/04 5:09 pm<br></i>

<<Religion doesn't dictate personality, in my opinion, and sourcebooks definitely shouldn't. >><br>
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Tell that to the Spanish Inquisition. Seriously. Dont break out in Monty Python skits. <br>
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Art reflects life, and this is no exception. Religion is a state of mind for some people, and for some the more intense, the more fanatic. To say that religion has no role in someones life and henceforth has no impact on their personality would defy why the fanatical christian right wing hates Gay people, or why White fundamentalist like the KKK hate pretty much all other races. Sure, they were brought up with it, but part of your upbringing comes not just from family but outside sources too, such as your community like church, school and your neighbors in some cases.<br>
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Sourcebooks, I think, are good guidelines to figure out how to play a character. A beginning player having these guidelines into the FR would feel as if his character fits in more with the world. If Im playing a character from the Cormyr, you would also have some expectations of what this character would be like, and I would like to for the most part try to stick to those guidelines, GENERALLY SPEAKING. Thats not to say that a character cant be his own personality, but it gives us some sort of structure or canvas to paint our imagination on.<br>
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Hector

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I guess I'm not making myself clear enough... my point is that it's not inherent. If Sypor wants to make a fairly good-natured cleric of Ilmater, that's fine, as long as it's plausible.

<p>-- Cafall (Corvus Gwynstredd'ae and Harritan Middleson)</p><i></i>