You and your charisma.

Cafall · Post by **Cafall** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 11:25 pm

About the paladins... yes, there is way too much hostility with them. Paladins are often preachy... the idea is that lots of other people would be inspired and possibly even convinced by their words and actions. They're supposed to set an example, and Trent does it well. He isn't a leader, but CHA 14 or no, I don't really think leadership is the sort of thing that fits the Trent character. 
 
I've often wondered if Corvus, with his low charisma and sometimes bitter, harsh, and (more often) simply cold attitude, takes on leadership too readily. The way I see it is that he has a good sense of logic for small-scale combat and has picked up a fair bit of larger-scale (though he is more comfortable in smaller groups), but his disposition often makes his orders rather harsh and demanding, and he has little concept of morale, as he himself is the fey sort. I would imagine that people follow him mostly because they know of his experience, not because they expect to be talked to with a smile. Am I doing this well? Should Corvus simply step back and take a back seat more often than he currently does?

-- Cafall (Corvus Gwynstredd'ae and Harritan Middleson)

ShyVast · Post by **ShyVast** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 12:01 am

In my opinion, Corvus steps up because, 1) he trusts his judgement before the judgement of others, and 2) often no one else does, and he wants to get the job done, and done right. I think both of these are in character, I don't see him as stepping aside to be fair, or to be magnanmus, because I think he values protection and common sense over worrying about equity, or how he comes across. To put it in Farawen's perspective, like the Alpha wolf (male or female) who nips and growls at the rest of the pack to keep them inline for their own sake, to ensure the survival of the entire pack.

Thurgrin Axebender · Post by **Thurgrin Axebender** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 12:35 am

I've been debating whether or not to add my two crowns worth and decided to just do it: 
 
If CHR is being upheld as leadership ability, then I need to tone Thurgrin's involvement down a bit. Yet, it's hard to do what with his background and all. Plus folks tend to look to him to fill that role. 
 
His unmodified CHR is 13, however, being a Dwarf, it becomes 11. Pretty darn good looking for a Dwarf if you ask me. 
 
The whole stat thing means I have to seriously revamp the way Thurg's been played or rewrite his history or rebuild him or just plain retire him. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/frown.gif ALT=":(">

<hr /> 
 
Dwarf: Tak natu yenet 
Common: 'til next we meet 
 
~ Thurgrin Axebender

theultramoose · Post by **theultramoose** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 1:09 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>I would imagine that people follow him mostly because they know of his experience, not because they expect to be talked to with a smile. Am I doing this well? Should Corvus simply step back and take a back seat more often than he currently does?<hr></blockquote> 
 
That's exactly why Milton's quite comfortable following Corvus into some of the more dangerous areas. 
 
A man can be as ugly as sin and swear every third word in an annoying high pitched voice but if Milton knows that he's reliable and knows what he's talking about, it makes sense to put aside petty dislikes and defer to the person with the most experience. 
 
The few times I can remember going anywhere with Corvus for more than a minute or two, I don't think Corvus once explained what his intentions were, he just told people what to do and expected them to do it, or did something along the lines of saying 'we should head east then' and walking off. 
I don't think they're the actions of a great leader, more like the actions of someone who just knows that there's a job that needs doing and what's the best way for the group that's with him to deal with it.

Psilax · Post by **Psilax** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 4:11 am

Thurgrin, from what I've seen and our interaction, you play that 11 CHA well. First of all, 11 is the middle to high end of average (10 being the low end) and so an 11 CHA figure would not be the most insanely charismatic leader, but would have enough charisma to lead if he needs to and to draw others to him. My point is, 11 is not a low score, and in fact quite befits the character. Trent and his 14 CHA are also played well.

It's only when people take negative scores (below 10) that they might run into trouble leading. I have spoken to AG about this, and CHA is a tough one to play and sometimes people's OOC desire to be the leader for whatever reason bleeds into their IC persona, regardless of the CHA choices they made. And as AG said, an ugly figure can be a great leader and can have high CHA, as CHA is really more a stat which denotes personal magnetism/trust/leadership. And I have to agree that the physical aspect is the last one.

*places two heavy coins lightly inside the jar*

-Psilax

Bold added for emphasis by Algernon's Ghost

Thorned Rose · Post by **Thorned Rose** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 1:28 pm

<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/eek.gif ALT=":eek"> 
 
*stutters and sputters and sniffles* 
 
How much Black Bear Ale and duct tape would it take to convince you not to retire the dwarf rat? He is a wonderful character...

Cafall · Post by **Cafall** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 5:15 pm

NO, Thurgrin!! I haven't even started roleplaying with you yet! 
 
Thanks for the comments on Corvus and Charisma in general. It sounds as though Charisma actually has little to do with others' willingness to follow him, so I wouldn't say I'm playing it quite as badly as I had feared. Even so, he might be due a one- or two-point raise.

-- Cafall (Corvus Gwynstredd'ae and Harritan Middleson)

ish07 · Post by **ish07** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 5:35 pm

On this note, I gave Valens a charisma of 10, on the basis that he's attractive, but very anti-social. 
Despite his aloof nature, I'm finding that many of the "newer" players are drawn to him, and his previous mystique is slowly transforming into an aura that commands respect. I've given much thought to this, and have hypothesized thus: 
 
Corvus' leadership, as well as Karn's, Thurgrin's, and even Valens' occasional stint at the helm (due only to necessity), aren't driven by charisma, per say, but by reputation. Great heroes of old had "aura's" about them (and not the paladin kind), where you could tell by looking at them that they were capable of much. The horribly ugly ogre with a foul odor can still command respect by shouldering a huge club and giving a menacing growl. 
Applying this, the above four character's (mine the least of which) have seen countless battles and bear the "mark" of an experienced adventurer, and I believe that "mark" is what makes others look to them for leadership; there's no better teacher than experience. 
 
*reaches in his pocket, frowns, then pulls out a button and a piece of string and tosses it in the jar*

Rolock · Post by **Rolock** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 5:55 pm

Hi ya. [smiles] 
 
I must say, the idea of giving up a character or redesigning because 'one' stat seems a bit low seems kind of, fatalistic to me. [admits] 
 
From what I've seen of the DM's on this server they care 'more' about the story then following 'exactly' what the rules say in every situation. While rules are 'certianly' needed to play a game, I think the DM's here would agree that one of the first rules a good DM learns is, if a rule or roll is going to 'seriously' mess with the 'story', then you toss it out in favor of the continued story. And since I consider the DM's and players on this server to be exceptional, I think that should be a foregone conclusion. 
 
Now that's not an excuse for a character to simply run wild over the rules because he or she feels the DM will 'care' about the story to such an extent it'll bestow literal immortality upon a PC. But anyone that's been in a dedicated PnP group before, knows that it's a collaborative effort. The DM's work with the players and visa versa to further the story. Only a 'really' troublesome player (ie: one that either simply likes annoying people or just isn't really interested) is going to purposefully try to sabotage the game. 
 
But, that might just be me. [admits] When I play with a group, I'm their to not only have fun, but make sure everyone else including the DM is having fun too. Now, my character may be difficult at times if it's in character to do so, but if I feel something will be 'really' good for the story overall, I'll bring it up with a DM, see if they think it's a good idea, and if it can be worked into the story without throwing the story too off kilter. But since I'm a writer, the story and enjoyment of those participating in it is the most important thing to me. [smiles] 
 
But, for those of you 'really' concerned about why a low charisma person should or shouldn't lead, I believe Corvus' player expressed a concern over his 'leader' role in some situations. I think we can all safely assume their's a difference between getting a few people together, and you saying: "let's go this way." or "Let's be careful here." or "Do this." Then say...leading an army, or organizing an event or what have you. But even low charisma character's can lead, they just have to work at it. 
 
8 is the base statistic for a characteristic under most circumstances. Someone also mentioned their dwarf character. As far as I understand it, 10 is average and goes up from there. Just because you have an 11, and no bonus doesn't mean you shouldn't offer an opinion or lead a group if no one is up to the task. And since you are a dwarf, you're charisma is higher then average to begin with. 
 
But even 'those' with lower then average charisma's I think 'can' lead if they make the attempt. Just because their's 'no' NWN skill called leadership with skill ranks doesn't mean some other skill can't substitute. For instance...Take a brutish, stinky, mean, rude half orc. Let's say he has a CHA of 9. 
 
Not 'exactly' a sparkling coversationalist, or someone you'd want to carry on long conversations with or be around. he's likely uncouth, unless you yourself have low charisma then alot of his mannerisms probabaly wouldn't phase you. Now, let's say said half orc is manipulative? Normally you might say how? Well...just 'because' the half orc may have 5+ Ranks in Persuade, or Bluff, or Intimidate. 
 
Even with his 'low' Charisma some one can be a 'decent' leader. They won't have it come as 'easy' to them as the 14 Cha Paladin, Cleric, or Sorcerer..but they can still do it, as the above skills can stand in for 'leadership'. Some might even say those qualities are facets of leadership ability. 
 
So, if a player were truly concerned and wanted to go 'by the book'...I think ranks in one of those skills would constitute some reasonable 'past experience' in leadership ability. As a matter of fact, if a low charisma character were taking an active role time and time again as an organizer and as a party leader, I think spending a point or two in one of the skills would be easily justified by such a character. I think we've all seen people that while you wouldn't want to go out with them, or be their friend on a 'personal' basis can do a job well or lead others in projects, etc. They may have had to 'work' at it a bit more then someone that was more 'personable' and talkative, but they can still do it. 
 
That's just my opinions on matters. I think it would be a great disservice to the player community for some players to retire or rewrite a character because he or she had a bit of low charisma. Especially character's that are such great parts of the community. In short, I wouldn't change a thing. [smiles] 
 
Ro -- (Sena Treebottom)

Psilax · Post by **Psilax** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 6:40 pm

You're right Rolock, we're all here to have fun and no one should be obsessing about one or two points here or there.

The concern of the DM in a RP server is that things stay fair. There are alot of characters who have high Charisma scores, and put them there because they wanted to immerse themsevles, and stay true to their characters personality. It is then unfair to those players when another character chooses 8 or even 6 as their charisma and yet remains a hygenic, polite, well-spoken, and articulate leader. That person was able to use all the points they didn't put into Charisma into their combat oriented stats, giving them a noticeable edge over the RP'er.

There is a reason why the module has an NPC interaction script for varying Charisma scores. Those who have negative Charisma scores talk rudely to the NPC's, bereft of social graces.

For me it's just a matter of fairness to the other players. This is not meant to start a witch hunt for Power Gamers or even an attack on anyone, but in the end, this is a RP server, and the DM's here evaluate characters from a RP perspective.

AG has said it, I've said it. The first thing I look at (and continue to check from time to time) is the Character sheet, ability scores, and the Charisma score in particular. If someone wants their character to be above just plain average in any of the Charisma related attributes (looks, well-spoken, polite, articulate, ability to lead, etc.) it is always impressive to the DM's if they show that with their Charisma score.

There are a smaller number of people on the server who do this actively. Fighters, Clerics, Wizards, Rogues, Rangers, and other non-Charisma based classes with 14 Charisma or over. Those players have had to sacrifice their combat skills or whatever else to accomodate that score and it's those people that I am truly impressed with in the end. And I take note of it.

Now this isn't to say everyone should run out and make a character with 18 Charisma now and needlessly cripple their character, but that people should be a little more cognizant of their characters personality and assign those scores accordingly.

*shrugs* It's just a matter of fairness.

*tosses two more silver coins into the jar, the loud clink of metals against ancient clay accompanying the action*

-Psi

Amirsyl · Post by **Amirsyl** » Sun Feb 22, 2004 5:29 pm

How did I miss this thread... 
 
Sorry to dig it up, but I have been batteling over whether or not I roleplay Amir'syl's personna correctly alot. This has been something that is seriously bothering me. 
 
Amir has a CHA of 8. That being said, I feel that I break this mold created for him at times. I try to play him as being aloof, soft spoken, yet direct, and in the backdrop. He has an INT of 12 so, I feel that this makes up for it in some ways. Meaning that he speeks well for himself. He has "really" opened up to only two characters in his entire time in the Vast. That'd be about 8 months in RL. 
 
Anyway, when I joined the server I may have made Amir with powergamming type ideals in mind. This server has taught me everything I know of Roleplay. That being said, I am stuck with an 8 CHA and have grown sick of seeing it. 
 
I feel that I break this 8 CHA at times. Especially when Amir is leading wayward charcters through the wood. Or, when he is going out of his way to help lower level characters know of the dangers of the Vast's lands. Basically, typical Ranger behavoir. On several occassions Karn put Amir in charge of certain fascets of the scouts. That was very difficult to follow through on, but Amir managed much to his frustration. 
 
My biggest conflict may seem a small one. Amir is extremely fond of the Ranger camp and all who live there. The thing that I cannot stand is having Amir be blatantly rude to D'Jara and the other NPCs, even Ralbon. In my mind, he would never disrespect these people. Before anyone says "you put the 8 there, live with it", please take into consideration that I was clueless about roleplay 8 months ago when I created Amir. 
 
Anyway, this has been a major conflict for me when playing as Amir. I'd appreciate any feedback you all have to offer about this. PM me if you'd like. I really would like to know how I can RP Amir better. 
 
As for Trent, and Thurgrin. These are two characters that Amir really looked up to when he first journeyed to the Vast. They both come across as able leaders. Even though Trent seemed to lose it every now and again, he was always that voice of reason. If that makes any sense. Thurgrin comes across perfect with a 11CHA, even if he is a lowly dwarf :P . Karn, is blunt and to the point, no frills, and Lord of the Winds says it all. I think he leads out of sheer reputation and experience. Corvus leads in the same manner. Reputation and experience, followed with blunt crtisism by anyone else's positive input. Na, he'll give you the old *nods faintly* or some such emote. 
 
That all being said, I'd appreciate any feedback. Don't hold back, good or bad. Remember PMs are fine as well. 
 
Amir-

Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub188.ezboard.com/bthevast.showUserPublicProfile?gid=amirsyl>Amirsyl</A> at: 2/22/04 1:39 pm

pcpaf · Post by **pcpaf** » Sun Feb 22, 2004 5:44 pm

I just want to say that I belive its okey for orcs and dwaves to have under 10 in Charisma. They are build that way. They get a minus 2 so a 8 and even 6 is fine with me. People just have to remember that other charecters can´t see you only have CHA.6. So remember to try and play it <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif ALT=":D"> 
 
Have fun

Innuvindyl · Post by **Innuvindyl** » Sun Feb 22, 2004 5:44 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>My biggest conflict may seem a small one. Amir is extremely fond of the Ranger camp and all who live there. The thing that I cannot stand is having Amir be blatantly rude to D'Jara and the other NPCs, even Ralbon. In my mind, he would never disrespect these people. Before anyone says "you put the 8 there, live with it", please take into consideration that I was clueless about roleplay 8 months ago when I created Amir.<hr></blockquote> 
 
*shrugs* I think you shouldn't worry too much about this. I find that Ananiki is often too kind to them <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)"> 
 
But then I just kind of make up my own lines and have a one-way talk with the NPCs.

Cafall · Post by **Cafall** » Sun Feb 22, 2004 6:01 pm

I just want to say that I belive its okey for orcs and dwaves to have under 10 in Charisma. They are build that way. They get a minus 2 so a 8 and even 6 is fine with me.

An eight for orcs and dwarves is fine, but you'll still be playing an eight. A six is hard to play; if you want a character that's roughly as polite and accomodating as a troll, that's fine, and I will count you as skilled if you're willing to stick with it.

-- Cafall (Corvus Gwynstredd'ae and Harritan Middleson)

Post by **Algernon's Ghost** » Sun Feb 22, 2004 6:46 pm

The DMs will expect you to truly play those low charisma scores. Those mannered, clean, civilized characters walking around with charisma scores below 10 will not be receiving much RP xp.

Also expect to receive poor responses from more and more NPCs, and to speak rudely to them in return. Our implementation of realistic consequences for low charisma scores is only increasing over time.

In short, choose a low charisma because you want to play that sort of personality.

The Vast

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