Racial/social/cultural attitudes in the Forgotten Realms.

[Amirsyl]

I have not come across the exact source yet. I wish this would have been brought up back in Febuary when I posted.<br>
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Anyway, This all had something to do with The region around Waterdeep and the High Forest. I believe I was doing some background research involving the High Forest when I stumbled across the quote.<br>
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I do remember that it was an isolated war and was not an entire race against an entire race sort of thing. The two sides did ally themselves, and befriend the dwarven realm of Delzoun. The Dwarven realm of Ammarindar in the battles to save Eaerlann for example. <br>
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Currently, they have a general respect for each other but do not agree on ideology. The latter being very obvious as you probably know. Although, Sun Elves do hold prejudices over other races.<br>
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Anyway, I believe this was an isolated war held to a specific land. It was a very long time ago before dwarven and elvish alliances were formed. (the ones I mentioned above).<br>
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I am still searching for you Guktron. I hope to have the specific source to you sometime tonight. <br>
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*The above info was provided by FR Races of Faerun, and FR Campaign Setting books.

<p>~ Amir (Keen-Eye)<br>
<br>
You can get Keth'ryl Lythar's portraits at... http://www.moldee.com/hosted/Keth'ryl.zip</p><i></i>

[Psilax]

I'm fairly certain that aside from small border skirmishes, the Elves and Dwarves did not have any major conflicts, and in fact, worked together a number of times, and shared similar tragedies, such as when a large Elf/Dwarf meetings were annhilated by Drow attacks.<br>
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The relationship of Dwarves and Elves in the Forgotten Realms is actually nothing like that portrayed in Tolkien stuff. It's generally better to stay away from using Tolkien as a point of reference for this type of stuff, including the playing of the races. (It's not my intention to point anyone out here, just making a general comment).<br>
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Elves have however had several major wars with Humans. Entire Elven kingdoms have been destroyed by the imperialism of Human nations. An Elf would sooner get along with a Dwarf than a Human, IMO.<br>
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I've come across a lot of faulty internet sources as well. Some people tend to just make stuff up and put it up as valid FR information. Then again, some of it is valid too.<br>
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-Psi

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[Amirsyl]

Nice nickname Psi <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :) --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> ...<br>
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Anyway, Yes I would like to make it known that it was nothing major from what I can tell. I agree with your thinking that their relations are more cooperative than what Tolkien portrays.<br>
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This was pulled from the FR Races of Faerun book...<br>
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Gold dwarves regard elves and half-elves with suspicion after generations spent battling their deep-dwelling cousins (Drow).<br>
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Despite centuries of squabbling with elves and half-elves, shield dwarves have always managed to put aside their differences with the Tel-quessir in the face of outside threats.<br>
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Nothing major. But, they definitely are not the best of friends. Like you said Psi, border skirmishes were more probable, but I could have sworn there was a war a very, very long time ago before even humans reached the lands.<br>
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I completely agree that elves would be more wary of humans than dwarves. That is a whole other story. I play my character with those ideas in mind. He has met both Karn and Ruben IC. He has an admiration of sorts for Karn and is indebted to Ruben in another manner.<br>
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I am convinced that I would not have posted something like that if I had not thought it to be credible. I am still searching.<br>
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<p>~ Amir (Keen-Eye)<br>
<br>
You can get Keth'ryl Lythar's portraits at... http://www.moldee.com/hosted/Keth'ryl.zip</p><i></i>

[Amirsyl]

One other key thing of note...<br>
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I could have sworn that the wars were with the elves that befriended one of those dwarven clans that I had mentioned above. I could have sworn that the Drow threatening both Earlann and the given dwarven realm brought them together after years of wars.<br>
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<p>~ Amir (Keen-Eye)<br>
<br>
You can get Keth'ryl Lythar's portraits at... http://www.moldee.com/hosted/Keth'ryl.zip</p><i></i>

[Cafall]

Nothing major. But, they definitely are not the best of friends. Like you said Psi, border skirmishes were more probable, but I could have sworn there was a war a very, very long time ago before even humans reached the lands.

I seem to recall that humans have been on Faerûn longer than either elves are dwarves, considering that they're native and one of the Creator Races, and elves and dwarves are foreign.


-- Cafall (Corvus Gwynstredd'ae and Khiasa Restil)

[Amirsyl]

Just going by the fact that elven civilizations amongst the woodlands seem to be encroached more upon humans as the years go on. They came as the first gardeners of the great forests of the land an the like. Sorry to confuse you.

<p>~ Amir (Keen-Eye)<br>
<br>
You can get Keth'ryl Lythar's portraits at... http://www.moldee.com/hosted/Keth'ryl.zip</p><i></i>

[Cafall]

I'll do a bit of reading on this myself. Interesting stuff.

-- Cafall (Corvus Gwynstredd'ae and Khiasa Restil)

[Amirsyl]

It is interesting stuff. I know I have been vague about this and at the same time, I may be completely off. I won't be certain until I find the source.<br>
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All I do know for sure is, this is the best place to discuss such a thing and to learn more about the background of Forgotten Realms. This forum is a great place to learn things that will make our characters a bit more deeper.

<p>~ Amir (Keen-Eye)<br>
<br>
You can get Keth'ryl Lythar's portraits at... http://www.moldee.com/hosted/Keth'ryl.zip</p><i></i>

[ShyVast]

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The elves are one of the major races of the Realms. They are known as the fair folk and the long lived, and once ruled large sections of the Realms after the time of the dragons and before the coming of humankind. Now the majority have retreated from the onslaught of humankind, seeking quieter forests or refuges, and their numbers in the Realms are a fraction of those even a thousand years ago. <hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>
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I found this quote on the site Myth-Drannor, in the section labeled, "Elves of Toril". <br>
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<!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://myth-drannor.net/DlabraddathNet/z-Cormanthyr/home">myth-drannor.net/Dlabradd...nthyr/home</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--> page.htm<br>
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The site is an excellent resource, and I would consider their information accurate. They list their bibliography of sources along with this claim.<br>
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<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>In gathering data for this site we have used both official and unofficial, and we have used material relating to both 2nd and 3rd ed. We have treated both 2nd and 3rd ed sources, the Forgotten Realms Novels, and Dragon Magazine as official sources. Unless otherwise stated all the articles are written by kiwidoc, based on these sources. She has tried to use this data to create the best synthesis she could, and to create a site useful to both 2nd and 3rd ed players. Those articles either based on unofficial sources or creating new material either have the author's name especially mentioned, or carry a disclaimer. <hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>
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In other words, Elves were on Toril before humans.

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[Cafall]

While it looks like Cormanthyr is mostly correct, there may be an inconsistency in its phrasing.
From the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting:

While the deities battled, many intelligent beings arose on Toril. Modern scholars call the five greatest the creator races... [saurians, dragons, shapechangers, and fey folk] The last creator race, and the one that spent the longest time in a primitive state, is the humans. Always adaptable and ingenious, humans made advances with incredible speed and efficiency when circumstances allowed for their rise to prominence. Of the five creator races, only the humans survive as a cohesive civilization today. The individual dragons war with each other, and the others have vanished from the world or splintered among their subraces.

And later, in another section:

With the discovery of magic by the creator races, talented individuals began experimenting with planar travel, contacting and visiting other worlds. Through these early portals came natives of these other worlds—dwarves, treants, elves, and mind flayers, in that order.

All this time, humans were nomadic and barbaric, but they were there. Humans coalesced into settlements sometime during the Crown Wars (as it mentions that humans had largely settled by the time the kingdom Illefarn was trading magic to the humans, which was shortly after the Crown Wars ended.)

-- Cafall (Corvus Gwynstredd'ae and Khiasa Restil)

[goatte]

*grins* Of course, that book was written by a 'human' and is suspect regarding the true origins of the Elven race.<br>
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<!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :lol --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/laugh.gif ALT=":lol"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <br>
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Good find there, Cafall.<br>
<br>
goatte

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[Guktron]

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<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>They are known as the fair folk and the long lived, and once ruled large sections of the Realms after the time of the dragons and before the coming of humankind.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>
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ShyVast, <br>
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You may have taken a literal interpretation of the phrase "before the coming of humankind." The author seems to be referring to the coming of human civilization in large, expansive settling groups.<br>
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Thank you for showing us the Myth Drannor resource.<br>
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[ShyVast]

Ah ok. So it was elvin civilization, if according to Cafall humans were still nomadic. Anyway, if there was a question somewhere, did it get answered? <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START ;) --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END-->

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[Guktron]

ShyVast,<br>
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Not yet. We're still waiting for Amirsyl to back this up with a credible (re: Forgotten Realms) source:<br>
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<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Found this while researching elven history. It is a quick overview of the Elves vs. Dwarves theory in Forgotten Realms.<br>
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None are truly sure of the reason behind the war with the dwarves. Some claim the dispute was a territorial matter, while others hold it was a difference in ideologies. Of course, both elves and dwarves name the other as instigator. Whatever the cause, they fought brutal, bitter wars for many years. They have since reconciled to a degree, but there has never been total trust between the two races. <hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>
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Something like this would have made it into the Forgotten Realms timeline. So far, I have come across only one historical conflict involving the two races, but this was not one race against the other; each side included elves and dwarves (Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, pg. 26<!--EZCODE EMOTICON START 8) --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/glasses.gif ALT="8)"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> :<br>
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-4400 Drow and duergar destroy the Elven court and the dwarven nation of Sarphil. <br>
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I'm not usually one to call someone's bluff, but I would be amazed if you directed me to official campaign material that described a war between elves and dwarves on Faerún (excluding the drow and duergar). Nothing personal bro, I only seek the truth. <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :| --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/indifferent.gif ALT=":|"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <br>


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[Amirsyl]

As I said before Guktron, it was not an epic battle of races. So, what is the point?

<p>~ Amir (Keen-Eye)<br>
<br>
You can get Keth'ryl Lythar's portraits at... http://www.moldee.com/hosted/Keth'ryl.zip</p><i></i>